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Fair enough. What do you suggest "we" (anti-anti-maskers and anti-anti-vaxers) say to these people in order to try and sway them to more factual information and

Fair enough. What do you suggest "we" (anti-anti-maskers and anti-anti-vaxers) say to these people in order to try and sway them to more factual information and keep them along with the rest of our communities safe? Most if not all of what I have said to such people is often met with responses like "No", "fake news", "watch this video by Dr. So-and-so". Or them flat out talking down to me thinking I'm a dumb person on the fence about it when in reality I'm far from on the fence about it.

chrisco255 5y ago
Nothing you can say. We feel how we feel. Covid is endemic it continues to mutate and evolve, we are all going to get it. Your health is and always has been your best defense. And smiling in public is not a biohazard.
- PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
  The big problem with a pandemic like COVID-19 is when it's presented in terms of personal risk. The reality remains that any given individual's chance of becoming seriously ill, let alone dying, from COVID-19 is extremely small. The problem is not this risk, but instead the risk that large numbers of people will be sick enough to require health care, particularly hospitalization and even more particularly ICU facilities, all within a very short period of time, causing overload of health care systems and many more unnecessary deaths from things other than COVID-19 due to the impairment of the health care system. But instead, huge chunks of the media/culture discuss COVID-19 in terms of personal risk. The personal responsibility that we have to each other in a pandemic like this is not a question of "I should do X because I might die of it", but rather "I should do X to reduce the risk that others will die of it and other illness". And no, "your health is and always has been your best defense" is a ludicrous position. It's abundantly clear that none of our socially-understood markers for "good health" are guarantoors of "covid will not kill you".
shmel 5y ago
I think the main problem with hesitancy is enormous mistrust to the government and to the state. The very same problem that led to Trump's victory. For decades people in power fuck the working class over, poor people repeatedly watch the government going against their interest and getting in bed with rich corporations all while lying through their teeth how they totally care about everyone. Now the government comes back and says: "please take this vaccine, it is really for your own sake, trust us, this time for real we truly care about you". What do you expect them to do? People on here laugh at those drinking bleach to "own the libs", oh those stupid conservatives. Have you ever considered how much you have to antagonize and anger people to push them to do this?! This is not about the virus, as they say. This is not about the vaccine either. Many people across the world feel angry, ignored for years and powerless to change the status quo. They are miserable and see absolute contempt from the politicians. The same ones who now call for them to end the pandemic ASAP and go back to how things were before. The whole antivax fake news stuff taps directly into people's mistrust. When you live for years with the feeling "omg, these people are definitely lying to me", it takes just a few videos to confirm this: "oh yeah, they are _definitely_ lying to me and I am not alone to realize this". Go figure this out first.
- watwut 5y ago
  But, Trump voters are not primary poor. If it is mistrust toward the state, how come it comes from the same groups that treat calls for police accountability as attack on police, support both military and police in pretty much any situation? That pushes for having cops as armed as possible? The same groups that right now managed to make abortion fully impossible in Texas? Whose primary approach to social issues is to make punishments higher? If it is against corporations, why is it coming from the same party that is actively and systematically working to make corporations stronger? > People on here laugh at those drinking bleach to "own the libs", oh those stupid conservatives. Have you ever considered how much you have to antagonize and anger people to push them to do this?! Have you considered that the whole "own the libs" and "trigger the libs" is conscious attempt to make your opponents angry? And that those opponents do react to it too? That is the whole point, antagonize people you are owning or triggering. And that is somehow fault of people who you go out of way to antagonize?
- deleted 5y ago
dgfitz 5y ago
Why do you feel the need to say anything at all? You feel How you feel, they feel how they feel, telling them “you need to feel how I feel” isn’t going to do much except make people angry. I got my 2 shots, I wear a mask when required. I don’t care even a tiny little bit what everyone else does. I can’t control them nor do I care to try.
- PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
  > I don’t care even a tiny little bit what everyone else does. I can’t control them nor do I care to try. This is not a recipe for solid public health policy. Maybe it's fine as an individual life choice, but COVID-19 is a public health condition, not a private one, and requires public health responses, not private ones.
  - dgfitz 5y ago
    Hard disagree. The people that are going to get vaccinated either have or will at some point. The people who aren’t, won’t unless somehow forced. Policy won’t do anything except make people even more angry. Fuck policy. It really drives me nuts when people take the attitude “I know what’s best for you, you’re too stupid to be able to make your own decisions. I’m really smart and I’ll decide for you.”
    - PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
      No, absolutely no. None of this is about "what's best for you". As I said above, one of the biggest category errors with COVID-19 is to treat it as a personal risk issue. The personal risk is almost inconsequential, the real problem is with public health, and the decisions there have very little to do with "what's best for you" as an individual, and everything to do with "what's best for our health systems".
      - dgfitz 5y ago
        What I’m saying is, policy won’t do bupkis. People are going to do what they want. This ideological idea that “policy will fix covid” is willful ignorance at this point.

chrisco255 5y ago

Nothing you can say. We feel how we feel. Covid is endemic it continues to mutate and evolve, we are all going to get it. Your health is and always has been your best defense. And smiling in public is not a biohazard.

PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
The big problem with a pandemic like COVID-19 is when it's presented in terms of personal risk. The reality remains that any given individual's chance of becoming seriously ill, let alone dying, from COVID-19 is extremely small. The problem is not this risk, but instead the risk that large numbers of people will be sick enough to require health care, particularly hospitalization and even more particularly ICU facilities, all within a very short period of time, causing overload of health care systems and many more unnecessary deaths from things other than COVID-19 due to the impairment of the health care system. But instead, huge chunks of the media/culture discuss COVID-19 in terms of personal risk. The personal responsibility that we have to each other in a pandemic like this is not a question of "I should do X because I might die of it", but rather "I should do X to reduce the risk that others will die of it and other illness". And no, "your health is and always has been your best defense" is a ludicrous position. It's abundantly clear that none of our socially-understood markers for "good health" are guarantoors of "covid will not kill you".

shmel 5y ago

I think the main problem with hesitancy is enormous mistrust to the government and to the state. The very same problem that led to Trump's victory. For decades people in power fuck the working class over, poor people repeatedly watch the government going against their interest and getting in bed with rich corporations all while lying through their teeth how they totally care about everyone. Now the government comes back and says: "please take this vaccine, it is really for your own sake, trust us, this time for real we truly care about you". What do you expect them to do? People on here laugh at those drinking bleach to "own the libs", oh those stupid conservatives. Have you ever considered how much you have to antagonize and anger people to push them to do this?! This is not about the virus, as they say. This is not about the vaccine either. Many people across the world feel angry, ignored for years and powerless to change the status quo. They are miserable and see absolute contempt from the politicians. The same ones who now call for them to end the pandemic ASAP and go back to how things were before. The whole antivax fake news stuff taps directly into people's mistrust. When you live for years with the feeling "omg, these people are definitely lying to me", it takes just a few videos to confirm this: "oh yeah, they are _definitely_ lying to me and I am not alone to realize this". Go figure this out first.

watwut 5y ago
But, Trump voters are not primary poor. If it is mistrust toward the state, how come it comes from the same groups that treat calls for police accountability as attack on police, support both military and police in pretty much any situation? That pushes for having cops as armed as possible? The same groups that right now managed to make abortion fully impossible in Texas? Whose primary approach to social issues is to make punishments higher? If it is against corporations, why is it coming from the same party that is actively and systematically working to make corporations stronger? > People on here laugh at those drinking bleach to "own the libs", oh those stupid conservatives. Have you ever considered how much you have to antagonize and anger people to push them to do this?! Have you considered that the whole "own the libs" and "trigger the libs" is conscious attempt to make your opponents angry? And that those opponents do react to it too? That is the whole point, antagonize people you are owning or triggering. And that is somehow fault of people who you go out of way to antagonize?
deleted 5y ago

dgfitz 5y ago

Why do you feel the need to say anything at all? You feel How you feel, they feel how they feel, telling them “you need to feel how I feel” isn’t going to do much except make people angry. I got my 2 shots, I wear a mask when required. I don’t care even a tiny little bit what everyone else does. I can’t control them nor do I care to try.

PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
> I don’t care even a tiny little bit what everyone else does. I can’t control them nor do I care to try. This is not a recipe for solid public health policy. Maybe it's fine as an individual life choice, but COVID-19 is a public health condition, not a private one, and requires public health responses, not private ones.
- dgfitz 5y ago
  Hard disagree. The people that are going to get vaccinated either have or will at some point. The people who aren’t, won’t unless somehow forced. Policy won’t do anything except make people even more angry. Fuck policy. It really drives me nuts when people take the attitude “I know what’s best for you, you’re too stupid to be able to make your own decisions. I’m really smart and I’ll decide for you.”
  - PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
    No, absolutely no. None of this is about "what's best for you". As I said above, one of the biggest category errors with COVID-19 is to treat it as a personal risk issue. The personal risk is almost inconsequential, the real problem is with public health, and the decisions there have very little to do with "what's best for you" as an individual, and everything to do with "what's best for our health systems".
    - dgfitz 5y ago
      What I’m saying is, policy won’t do bupkis. People are going to do what they want. This ideological idea that “policy will fix covid” is willful ignorance at this point.