3 ms·

>I'm not seeing how its "gaming the metric" to include travel time of the key on a keyboard. Because if we remove travel time by using a capacitive keyboard yo

by kongin 5y ago

>I'm not seeing how its "gaming the metric" to include travel time of the key on a keyboard. Because if we remove travel time by using a capacitive keyboard you end up with something that is objectively a worse keyboard. Replacing the capacitors with strain gauges so you can rest your fingers on the home row without activating them results in an worse keyboard yet again. Any metric that when optimized produces an objectively worse product is a bad metric and optimizing a bad metric is gaming it.

pdpi 5y ago
It’s not an “objectively worse product”. It’s a product that does well on some metrics (size, apparently latency) and does poorly on others (famously, durability). Then there’s the completely subjective aspect of what sort of feel you want from the keyboard — which is why Cherry has a bazillion different switch types (and why I have a tester set on my desk right now because I’m trying to decide on a new keyboard). Prioritising each of those is up to you. Your priorities are different from mine, and my preferences don’t make your keyboard of choice “objectively worse” overall.
riversflow 5y ago
This is quite literally about as subjective as it gets. You like a thunk when you type, and there isn’t anything wrong with that, but other people really like short stroke keys, and they might even find the keyboard you described delightful, especially—I would imagine— if it was paired with a nice, timely audio queue and haptics. I know several people who absolutely loved the butterfly keyboards, and I found them a joy to type on in short bursts. However I, personally, have too heavy of hands/fingers for them and prefer ~80g actuation force so I can completely rest my fingers on the keys without activating them.
- kongin 5y ago
  >if it was paired with a nice, timely audio queue and haptics. So now you have extra latency between key activation, audio activation and haptic activation. You know what gives you all of those for free and ensures they are always timed correctly? A physical key. >I know several people who absolutely loved the butterfly keyboards, and I found them a joy to type on in short bursts. However I, personally, have too heavy of hands/fingers for them and prefer ~80g actuation force so I can completely rest my fingers on the keys without activating them. Activation force and key travel distance have nothing to do with each other. I'm half tempted to build a strain gauge keyboard with zero travel just so people can pay me to see how bad they are. The less physical feedback a keyboard gives you the more typos you make using it. Arguing that keyboards which encourage you to make more typos are good is as stupid as saying that camouflaged stop signs are as good as the old fashioned red ones. This isn't an opinion, this is objectively true.
  - riversflow 5y ago
    >The less physical feedback a keyboard gives you the more typos you make using it. Arguing that keyboards which encourage you to make typos are good is as stupid… this is objectively true. This seems like a tenuous assumption. It completely ignores the main point I have, which is that different users have different preference. That’s why I brought up activation force, because my problem with the magic keyboard wasn’t the feedback, which I absolutely loved, but the activation force of the keys. I and many others have never found the amount of feedback on the Magic keyboard to be inadequate. You are projecting your personal perception that a large amount of key travel distance makes you type more accurately and is therefore desirable(to you), into an axiomatic truth about the nature of keyboards for everyone(i.e. that significant travel distance is needed to make a high quality keyboard and therefore shouldn’t be counted in a metric about the latency of inputs).
    - kongin 5y ago
      I'll make you a keyboard with 80g zero travel keys for $1,500 if you think they are so great.

by kongin 5y ago

pdpi 5y ago

It’s not an “objectively worse product”. It’s a product that does well on some metrics (size, apparently latency) and does poorly on others (famously, durability). Then there’s the completely subjective aspect of what sort of feel you want from the keyboard — which is why Cherry has a bazillion different switch types (and why I have a tester set on my desk right now because I’m trying to decide on a new keyboard). Prioritising each of those is up to you. Your priorities are different from mine, and my preferences don’t make your keyboard of choice “objectively worse” overall.

riversflow 5y ago

This is quite literally about as subjective as it gets. You like a thunk when you type, and there isn’t anything wrong with that, but other people really like short stroke keys, and they might even find the keyboard you described delightful, especially—I would imagine— if it was paired with a nice, timely audio queue and haptics. I know several people who absolutely loved the butterfly keyboards, and I found them a joy to type on in short bursts. However I, personally, have too heavy of hands/fingers for them and prefer ~80g actuation force so I can completely rest my fingers on the keys without activating them.

kongin 5y ago
>if it was paired with a nice, timely audio queue and haptics. So now you have extra latency between key activation, audio activation and haptic activation. You know what gives you all of those for free and ensures they are always timed correctly? A physical key. >I know several people who absolutely loved the butterfly keyboards, and I found them a joy to type on in short bursts. However I, personally, have too heavy of hands/fingers for them and prefer ~80g actuation force so I can completely rest my fingers on the keys without activating them. Activation force and key travel distance have nothing to do with each other. I'm half tempted to build a strain gauge keyboard with zero travel just so people can pay me to see how bad they are. The less physical feedback a keyboard gives you the more typos you make using it. Arguing that keyboards which encourage you to make more typos are good is as stupid as saying that camouflaged stop signs are as good as the old fashioned red ones. This isn't an opinion, this is objectively true.
- riversflow 5y ago
  >The less physical feedback a keyboard gives you the more typos you make using it. Arguing that keyboards which encourage you to make typos are good is as stupid… this is objectively true. This seems like a tenuous assumption. It completely ignores the main point I have, which is that different users have different preference. That’s why I brought up activation force, because my problem with the magic keyboard wasn’t the feedback, which I absolutely loved, but the activation force of the keys. I and many others have never found the amount of feedback on the Magic keyboard to be inadequate. You are projecting your personal perception that a large amount of key travel distance makes you type more accurately and is therefore desirable(to you), into an axiomatic truth about the nature of keyboards for everyone(i.e. that significant travel distance is needed to make a high quality keyboard and therefore shouldn’t be counted in a metric about the latency of inputs).
  - kongin 5y ago
    I'll make you a keyboard with 80g zero travel keys for $1,500 if you think they are so great.