7 ms·

Drinking outside a bar in Paris (so table service) with my girlfriend, the glasses approach empty so I turn to catch the barman's eye. He flicks the Vs (I am c

Drinking outside a bar in Paris (so table service) with my girlfriend, the glasses approach empty so I turn to catch the barman's eye. He flicks the Vs (I am culturally sensitive so not offended, he means "two more pints?"), I return the thumbs-up. He brings one pint.

dylan604 5y ago
That's interesting. How can one differentiate the two then? Does the wrist position matter? A thumb out with the wrist twisted so the thumb is at an angle indicates "1", but a forward thrusted wrist so the thumb is pointing up and towards the person mean "yes, good job"? Is the second meaning lost entirely to the barman? If you had flashed OK hand gesture, would the barman have poured 3 pints, or thought you were a member of a fringe group?
- rpmisms 5y ago
  > If you had flashed OK hand gesture... thought you were a member of a fringe group? For what it's worth, this hand sign being a hate dogwhistle is pretty much entirely an invention of 4chan.
  - MengerSponge 5y ago
    > invention of 4chan They set out to transform a symbol, and they succeeded. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OK_gesture#White_power_symbol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OK_gesture#White_power_symbol If you think it isn't real because it was made up, Vonnegut's Mother Night has you covered: "We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be.”
    - rpmisms 5y ago
      I think you're seeing a slightly different narrative. 4chan decided to make people upset about the hand sign, some major news networks obediently expressed outrage, and a whole lot of people who actively dislike said news channels discovered a whole new way to generate headlines.
      - not2b 5y ago
        They were so successful at marketing the idea that the "ok" sign meant White Power that white nationalists started using it that way and the meaning shifted. And since a lot of the 4chan people are deeply racist they were basically saying "let's take over this symbol". And they succeeded.
        kukx 5y ago
        As far as I know 4chan people were trolling the media and they succeeded. The result is both funny and scary. The scary part is that random people's lives are harmed because of some innocent photo or gesture. This insanity stems not only from media but also the new culture. Hopefully when going back to normality we will not swing too much to the other side.
        Quanttek 5y ago
        You're completely ignoring the fact, started in the comment as well, that white nationalists have widely adopted the signal subsequently
    - chmod775 5y ago
      They only succeeded if you let them. And if you do I'm going to think less of you for enabling them. Right now this new 'perception' is pretty limited to a certain US-centric news bubble. Everyone outside that bubble in the US, and generally people everywhere else, are likely to laugh in your face if you tried to convince them the OK gesture is a hate symbol now. Your average person hasn't even heard of this inane controversy. I for one have to seek out the kind of demographic who thinks that way online - because nowhere else could I even find anyone.
      - MengerSponge 5y ago
        That same hand symbol has been super offensive in Germany for decades, but for scatological reasons, not white power ones. The swastika was a symbol of good luck, the infinity of creation and the unconquered, revolving sun for millennia. Now it's the symbol of the Nazi party and their atrocities. It's not fair, but that's how symbols work. Their meanings can change when new meanings are ascribed to them. https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2018/09/18/ok-sign-white-power-symbol-or-just-right-wing-troll https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2018/09/18/ok-sign-white... If a bunch of far-right dipshits want to rally around a cartoon frog and what used to be an innocuous hand gesture, then the meaning of those symbols is going to shift. You're the one playing into their hand. You're the one letting the cryptos remain crypto, instead of illuminating and naming their behavior, for shame.
      - DoItToMe81 5y ago
        The same people blaring on about them somehow "taking over" a common symbol were, not so long ago, trying to claim that the same scumbags had somehow 'taken over milk' as a symbol of white supremacy. It's impossible to take these claims seriously. The media will publish anything that gets clicks, no matter how exaggerated or even fabricated, the people making up these claims know they'll get instant coverage and spread their 'cause', and the people spreading the idea that some loser somewhere saying "uh, the middle finger stands for the monolithic purity of the white race" is actually a threat to the fabric of society just enjoy having another thing to be morally panicked by.
    - paisawalla 5y ago
      No. This gentleman is not, and was not, a white supremacist: https://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/sdge-worker-fired-over-alleged-racist-gesture-says-he-was-cracking-knuckles/2347414 https://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/sdge-worker-fired-ove... He didn't lose his job because of 4chan, but because of ostensibly well-intentioned midwits who believe "4chan succeeded in transforming a symbol" and "fake things can be real". Truly, this type of rationalization is the Bell Curve meme in action. He was fired because of the reaction -- engineered by 4chan -- of over-intellectualizing social justice nabobs who attend rallies and protests. You guys were literally told the punchline of the joke and still walked right into it.
      - Jordrok 5y ago
        Maybe not, but this guy sure is: https://www.axios.com/christchuch-attacks-brenton-tarrant-1552716245-18d37895-d870-4e94-8dd6-0a56eb7a0a5e.html https://www.axios.com/christchuch-attacks-brenton-tarrant-15... Obviously the twitter hive-mind went too far in singling this one guy out, and SDG&E colossally fucked up in not doing basic due diligence before firing him. That doesn't change the fact though that there are people out there who do indeed use the hand sign to unironically mean exactly the things that 4chan set out to convince people that it meant. Sticking your head in the sand and pretending otherwise is nothing short of willful ignorance.
        paisawalla 5y ago
        Amazing. The false information that this gesture means anything has everything to do with that man being fired, and contributes absolutely nothing to the awfulness of the Christchurch shooting, but you feel there is somehow an equivalence? Not only that, but you think there's moral superiority afforded to you for making this observation?
    - slim 5y ago
      It's funny because that sign represents "allah" :) if I was into conspiracy I would say there's a 4chan elite directing hilarious ops inside 4chan
      - rpmisms 5y ago
        4chan generally produces some of the most objectively hilarious scenarios. I recommend watching the "He will not divide us" series by Internet Historian on Youtube.
    - AnnoyedComment 5y ago
      By this logic, you should start using racial slurs in a positive way.
  - at_a_remove 5y ago
    It is an amazing way to show how paranoid people are over "dogwhistles." Witches are everywhere!
    - rpmisms 5y ago
      People want to have something to fear or wave pitchforks at. It's simple mob psychology, and it's scary.
      - anigbrowl 5y ago
        Perhaps you'd care to explain why this guy has it emblazoned on his helmet. As I have pointed out many times, simply ignoring people whose ideas you find disagreeable doesn't necessarily make them go away. https://theintercept.imgix.net/wp-uploads/sites/1/2021/08/082221_kmart.jpg?auto=compress%2Cformat&q=90&fit=crop&w=1440&h=720 https://theintercept.imgix.net/wp-uploads/sites/1/2021/08/08...
        refenestrator 5y ago
        Because we're all idiots who got taken in on this by 4chan. The symbol became irresistible to that guy after watching liberals lose their minds at it. If it hadn't bothered the libs, it would have no use to him.
        deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
        eurasiantiger 5y ago
        Exactly. The Trump crowd is made up of bullies, trolls, middle class frat boys and other antisocials, while various influencers are feeding them ideas. And horse medicine.
        jimmygrapes 5y ago
        > The Trump crowd is made up of bullies, trolls, middle class frat boys and other antisocials And millions of others who don't fit a single one of those othering statements > And horse medicine. Also human medicine for several decades, with perfectly safe dosages and formulations. Please don't spread misinformation.
- slim 5y ago
  He should have nodded his head
  - dylan604 5y ago
    Careful, is that a singular movement from up to down in affirmation, or a singular movement from down to up as in "what's up"? in some situations, the first would mean send in the assassin to take out that person involved in that thing. that's one you don't want to use at the wrong time.
    - FredPret 5y ago
      It’s a wonder we humans get anything done
- Leherenn 5y ago
  It's going to depend based on context. In this case, context was unclear and a misunderstanding ensued. I have nothing to back this up except experience, but I think the thumb up is less common is Europe than in the US. In this specific case, I think the expected answer is to confirm the number by flashing the same sign. A nod would also work, but be potentially less clear/easier to be missed. The ok gesture would likely have worked as well, since in France they start counting from the thumb. I don't think the fringe group association is well known in France.
  - bombela 5y ago
    The ok sign usually means zero in France. In this situation; as a Frenchy; I would have repeated the count to confirm while nodding. Or waved my hand while shaking my head to refuse.
    - touisteur 5y ago
      Or waved your finger to say no, or as a real French just shout through 'patron ya marée basse, r'mets voir les p'tites soeurs !'. Thumbs up would work too, maybe both thumbs up, once you're sure the guy understood you wanted two pint... We may use the OK sign to signify 'au poil' (very fine) most often with pinched lips (mock Italian face).
- grandpa_on_lawn 5y ago
  Nodding the head is probably the better way.
  - bsanr2 5y ago
    I've heard of situations where the nod/shake are switched. Better just go with the waggle.
nautilius 5y ago
I find it curious that you mention your not being offended at some gesture that happens to mean something a couple 100 or 1000 miles away from where you saw the gesture. Why would it require extra cultural sensitivity to realize that, if you visit some other place, that they have a different language (verbal and non-verbal)?
- Lammy 5y ago
  It's hard to turn off a reflex to something you normally consider an offensive gesture. That kind of unconscious thought works faster than the "…oh, yeah, nevermind" thought. See also: how many times I've unconsciously started pumping my own gas when I drive through Oregon even though I "know" not to.
  - nautilius 5y ago
    It’s funny that you write this like it was some natural law rather than your own personal mentality.
    - Lammy 5y ago
      > like it was some natural law Yeah https://web.archive.org/web/20100611222125/http://biae.clemson.edu/bpc/bp/Lab/110/reaction.htm#Simple%20vs. https://web.archive.org/web/20100611222125/http://biae.clems...
      - nautilius 5y ago
        Hmm. I still see nothing about a natural law of having to be offended when I misunderstand a different language. For me personally, the whole context shifts. Does your heart start pumping when you see a photograph of Churchill making the same gesture? It's hard for me to connect your example of filling gas in Oregon to being reflexively insulted. Is that how you feel in your car, reflexively offended by Oregonian gas stations before your cultural sensitivity has time to resurface? Again, I have to say that I am sure personal differences are strong here, because I don't feel an uncontrollable bodily urge to jump put and fill up the tank within 140-220ms [1] of arriving at a gas station before my consciousness kicks in and I can make decisions again. [1] From your linked article.
yogenpro 5y ago
Sorry for being ignorant but sincere question: where / which culture considers the V gesture offensive? I'm assuming the V gesture you are referring to is the one that consists of holding up both index finger and middle finger, rather than the one with thumb and index finger.
- undersuit 5y ago
  IIRC you aren't supposed to hitchhike with a thumbs up in New Zealand, so I'm guessing we're dealing with a Kiwi. :)
  - peterburkimsher 5y ago
    Really? I just moved to NZ a couple of years ago and don't know how to drive, so will be wanting to hitchhike! What is a better gesture? "I’ve always used the traditional thumb approach (the norm for NZ)." https://churnewzealand.com/hitchhiking-in-new-zealand/ https://churnewzealand.com/hitchhiking-in-new-zealand/
    - darren_ 5y ago
      NZer, have never heard anything about not using thumbs-up for hitchhiking. I also can't imagine anyone (at least in NZ), who would be otherwise inclined to give you a ride, somehow getting irate about it either.
  - unearth3d 5y ago
    I'm an NZer, you are definitely wrong. You may be thinking of Turkey.
    - undersuit 5y ago
      I have no idea any more. I can't find straight answers on a lot of these country and hand sign associations.
- polka_haunts_us 5y ago
bsanr2 5y ago
During the Olympics, I noticed that many athletes seemed confused about where to go following their races/runs/performances. It always took them a second to orient and proceed in the direction the volunteers wanted them to go. I wondered (but never did find pictorial evidence) if it might have to do with the common Japanese gesture for "come this way," which, by happenstance, is almost identical to the rest of the world's gesture for "go away." https://www.tokyoweekender.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/tokyo-weekender-japanese-gestures-come-here.gif https://www.tokyoweekender.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/to...

dylan604 5y ago

That's interesting. How can one differentiate the two then? Does the wrist position matter? A thumb out with the wrist twisted so the thumb is at an angle indicates "1", but a forward thrusted wrist so the thumb is pointing up and towards the person mean "yes, good job"? Is the second meaning lost entirely to the barman? If you had flashed OK hand gesture, would the barman have poured 3 pints, or thought you were a member of a fringe group?

rpmisms 5y ago
> If you had flashed OK hand gesture... thought you were a member of a fringe group? For what it's worth, this hand sign being a hate dogwhistle is pretty much entirely an invention of 4chan.
- MengerSponge 5y ago
  > invention of 4chan They set out to transform a symbol, and they succeeded. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OK_gesture#White_power_symbol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OK_gesture#White_power_symbol If you think it isn't real because it was made up, Vonnegut's Mother Night has you covered: "We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be.”
  - rpmisms 5y ago
    I think you're seeing a slightly different narrative. 4chan decided to make people upset about the hand sign, some major news networks obediently expressed outrage, and a whole lot of people who actively dislike said news channels discovered a whole new way to generate headlines.
    - not2b 5y ago
      They were so successful at marketing the idea that the "ok" sign meant White Power that white nationalists started using it that way and the meaning shifted. And since a lot of the 4chan people are deeply racist they were basically saying "let's take over this symbol". And they succeeded.
      - kukx 5y ago
        As far as I know 4chan people were trolling the media and they succeeded. The result is both funny and scary. The scary part is that random people's lives are harmed because of some innocent photo or gesture. This insanity stems not only from media but also the new culture. Hopefully when going back to normality we will not swing too much to the other side.
        Quanttek 5y ago
        You're completely ignoring the fact, started in the comment as well, that white nationalists have widely adopted the signal subsequently
  - chmod775 5y ago
    They only succeeded if you let them. And if you do I'm going to think less of you for enabling them. Right now this new 'perception' is pretty limited to a certain US-centric news bubble. Everyone outside that bubble in the US, and generally people everywhere else, are likely to laugh in your face if you tried to convince them the OK gesture is a hate symbol now. Your average person hasn't even heard of this inane controversy. I for one have to seek out the kind of demographic who thinks that way online - because nowhere else could I even find anyone.
    - MengerSponge 5y ago
      That same hand symbol has been super offensive in Germany for decades, but for scatological reasons, not white power ones. The swastika was a symbol of good luck, the infinity of creation and the unconquered, revolving sun for millennia. Now it's the symbol of the Nazi party and their atrocities. It's not fair, but that's how symbols work. Their meanings can change when new meanings are ascribed to them. https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2018/09/18/ok-sign-white-power-symbol-or-just-right-wing-troll https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2018/09/18/ok-sign-white... If a bunch of far-right dipshits want to rally around a cartoon frog and what used to be an innocuous hand gesture, then the meaning of those symbols is going to shift. You're the one playing into their hand. You're the one letting the cryptos remain crypto, instead of illuminating and naming their behavior, for shame.
    - DoItToMe81 5y ago
      The same people blaring on about them somehow "taking over" a common symbol were, not so long ago, trying to claim that the same scumbags had somehow 'taken over milk' as a symbol of white supremacy. It's impossible to take these claims seriously. The media will publish anything that gets clicks, no matter how exaggerated or even fabricated, the people making up these claims know they'll get instant coverage and spread their 'cause', and the people spreading the idea that some loser somewhere saying "uh, the middle finger stands for the monolithic purity of the white race" is actually a threat to the fabric of society just enjoy having another thing to be morally panicked by.
  - paisawalla 5y ago
    No. This gentleman is not, and was not, a white supremacist: https://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/sdge-worker-fired-over-alleged-racist-gesture-says-he-was-cracking-knuckles/2347414 https://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/sdge-worker-fired-ove... He didn't lose his job because of 4chan, but because of ostensibly well-intentioned midwits who believe "4chan succeeded in transforming a symbol" and "fake things can be real". Truly, this type of rationalization is the Bell Curve meme in action. He was fired because of the reaction -- engineered by 4chan -- of over-intellectualizing social justice nabobs who attend rallies and protests. You guys were literally told the punchline of the joke and still walked right into it.
    - Jordrok 5y ago
      Maybe not, but this guy sure is: https://www.axios.com/christchuch-attacks-brenton-tarrant-1552716245-18d37895-d870-4e94-8dd6-0a56eb7a0a5e.html https://www.axios.com/christchuch-attacks-brenton-tarrant-15... Obviously the twitter hive-mind went too far in singling this one guy out, and SDG&E colossally fucked up in not doing basic due diligence before firing him. That doesn't change the fact though that there are people out there who do indeed use the hand sign to unironically mean exactly the things that 4chan set out to convince people that it meant. Sticking your head in the sand and pretending otherwise is nothing short of willful ignorance.
      - paisawalla 5y ago
        Amazing. The false information that this gesture means anything has everything to do with that man being fired, and contributes absolutely nothing to the awfulness of the Christchurch shooting, but you feel there is somehow an equivalence? Not only that, but you think there's moral superiority afforded to you for making this observation?
  - slim 5y ago
    It's funny because that sign represents "allah" :) if I was into conspiracy I would say there's a 4chan elite directing hilarious ops inside 4chan
    - rpmisms 5y ago
      4chan generally produces some of the most objectively hilarious scenarios. I recommend watching the "He will not divide us" series by Internet Historian on Youtube.
  - AnnoyedComment 5y ago
    By this logic, you should start using racial slurs in a positive way.
- at_a_remove 5y ago
  It is an amazing way to show how paranoid people are over "dogwhistles." Witches are everywhere!
  - rpmisms 5y ago
    People want to have something to fear or wave pitchforks at. It's simple mob psychology, and it's scary.
    - anigbrowl 5y ago
      Perhaps you'd care to explain why this guy has it emblazoned on his helmet. As I have pointed out many times, simply ignoring people whose ideas you find disagreeable doesn't necessarily make them go away. https://theintercept.imgix.net/wp-uploads/sites/1/2021/08/082221_kmart.jpg?auto=compress%2Cformat&q=90&fit=crop&w=1440&h=720 https://theintercept.imgix.net/wp-uploads/sites/1/2021/08/08...
      - refenestrator 5y ago
        Because we're all idiots who got taken in on this by 4chan. The symbol became irresistible to that guy after watching liberals lose their minds at it. If it hadn't bothered the libs, it would have no use to him.
        deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
        eurasiantiger 5y ago
        Exactly. The Trump crowd is made up of bullies, trolls, middle class frat boys and other antisocials, while various influencers are feeding them ideas. And horse medicine.
        jimmygrapes 5y ago
        > The Trump crowd is made up of bullies, trolls, middle class frat boys and other antisocials And millions of others who don't fit a single one of those othering statements > And horse medicine. Also human medicine for several decades, with perfectly safe dosages and formulations. Please don't spread misinformation.
slim 5y ago
He should have nodded his head
- dylan604 5y ago
  Careful, is that a singular movement from up to down in affirmation, or a singular movement from down to up as in "what's up"? in some situations, the first would mean send in the assassin to take out that person involved in that thing. that's one you don't want to use at the wrong time.
  - FredPret 5y ago
    It’s a wonder we humans get anything done
Leherenn 5y ago
It's going to depend based on context. In this case, context was unclear and a misunderstanding ensued. I have nothing to back this up except experience, but I think the thumb up is less common is Europe than in the US. In this specific case, I think the expected answer is to confirm the number by flashing the same sign. A nod would also work, but be potentially less clear/easier to be missed. The ok gesture would likely have worked as well, since in France they start counting from the thumb. I don't think the fringe group association is well known in France.
- bombela 5y ago
  The ok sign usually means zero in France. In this situation; as a Frenchy; I would have repeated the count to confirm while nodding. Or waved my hand while shaking my head to refuse.
  - touisteur 5y ago
    Or waved your finger to say no, or as a real French just shout through 'patron ya marée basse, r'mets voir les p'tites soeurs !'. Thumbs up would work too, maybe both thumbs up, once you're sure the guy understood you wanted two pint... We may use the OK sign to signify 'au poil' (very fine) most often with pinched lips (mock Italian face).
grandpa_on_lawn 5y ago
Nodding the head is probably the better way.
- bsanr2 5y ago
  I've heard of situations where the nod/shake are switched. Better just go with the waggle.

nautilius 5y ago

I find it curious that you mention your not being offended at some gesture that happens to mean something a couple 100 or 1000 miles away from where you saw the gesture. Why would it require extra cultural sensitivity to realize that, if you visit some other place, that they have a different language (verbal and non-verbal)?

Lammy 5y ago
It's hard to turn off a reflex to something you normally consider an offensive gesture. That kind of unconscious thought works faster than the "…oh, yeah, nevermind" thought. See also: how many times I've unconsciously started pumping my own gas when I drive through Oregon even though I "know" not to.
- nautilius 5y ago
  It’s funny that you write this like it was some natural law rather than your own personal mentality.
  - Lammy 5y ago
    > like it was some natural law Yeah https://web.archive.org/web/20100611222125/http://biae.clemson.edu/bpc/bp/Lab/110/reaction.htm#Simple%20vs. https://web.archive.org/web/20100611222125/http://biae.clems...
    - nautilius 5y ago
      Hmm. I still see nothing about a natural law of having to be offended when I misunderstand a different language. For me personally, the whole context shifts. Does your heart start pumping when you see a photograph of Churchill making the same gesture? It's hard for me to connect your example of filling gas in Oregon to being reflexively insulted. Is that how you feel in your car, reflexively offended by Oregonian gas stations before your cultural sensitivity has time to resurface? Again, I have to say that I am sure personal differences are strong here, because I don't feel an uncontrollable bodily urge to jump put and fill up the tank within 140-220ms [1] of arriving at a gas station before my consciousness kicks in and I can make decisions again. [1] From your linked article.

yogenpro 5y ago

Sorry for being ignorant but sincere question: where / which culture considers the V gesture offensive? I'm assuming the V gesture you are referring to is the one that consists of holding up both index finger and middle finger, rather than the one with thumb and index finger.

undersuit 5y ago
IIRC you aren't supposed to hitchhike with a thumbs up in New Zealand, so I'm guessing we're dealing with a Kiwi. :)
- peterburkimsher 5y ago
  Really? I just moved to NZ a couple of years ago and don't know how to drive, so will be wanting to hitchhike! What is a better gesture? "I’ve always used the traditional thumb approach (the norm for NZ)." https://churnewzealand.com/hitchhiking-in-new-zealand/ https://churnewzealand.com/hitchhiking-in-new-zealand/
  - darren_ 5y ago
    NZer, have never heard anything about not using thumbs-up for hitchhiking. I also can't imagine anyone (at least in NZ), who would be otherwise inclined to give you a ride, somehow getting irate about it either.
- unearth3d 5y ago
  I'm an NZer, you are definitely wrong. You may be thinking of Turkey.
  - undersuit 5y ago
    I have no idea any more. I can't find straight answers on a lot of these country and hand sign associations.
polka_haunts_us 5y ago

bsanr2 5y ago

During the Olympics, I noticed that many athletes seemed confused about where to go following their races/runs/performances. It always took them a second to orient and proceed in the direction the volunteers wanted them to go. I wondered (but never did find pictorial evidence) if it might have to do with the common Japanese gesture for "come this way," which, by happenstance, is almost identical to the rest of the world's gesture for "go away." https://www.tokyoweekender.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/tokyo-weekender-japanese-gestures-come-here.gif https://www.tokyoweekender.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/to...