6 ms·

https://twitter.com/jeremy_soller/status/1433088460655452162 https://twitter.com/jeremy_soller/status/1433088460655452162 I don't know why lots of developers h

https://twitter.com/jeremy_soller/status/1433088460655452162 https://twitter.com/jeremy_soller/status/1433088460655452162 I don't know why lots of developers have chosen GNOME/GTK to build their own desktop environment (Cinnamon, Solus, PopOS etc) but at this point, it's pretty clear that GNOME/GTK developers don't care one bit about them. They want to control their apps and their ecosystem and don't want anyone telling them what to do. GNOME/GTK is heading toward Google's open source model of "look but don't touch". Anything that doesn't conform to their way is a "hack". If Jeremy and others really want to control their own desktop environments and apps and themes, they should start searching for alternatives (Qt?) or build their own. It's a mistake to consider GNOME/GTK as a community project.

SAI_Peregrinus 5y ago
Hasn't that always been the trade-off of GNOME over KDE? GNOME is very much the "we know what's right for you" desktop environment for Linux, KDE is the "customize ALL the things" desktop environment.
Abishek_Muthian 5y ago
I recently switched from KDE to Upstream GNOME because I was tired of long pending bugs(e.g. Dolphin/Baloo going rogue) while new features keep getting added. I was surprised to find how refined GNOME is, everything just works. I understood that my misconceptions of GNOME was because of how it was integrated in the distros especially inconsistent theming and this letter states why it is so. I can confidently recommend upstream GNOME confidently to someone migrating from Windows/macOS to Linux for the first time over other DE due this consistency.
- ayushnix 5y ago
  It would obviously be easier for GNOME to ship an apparently more refined experience when customization possibilities are negligible and basic features are missing. One can't even change the fonts of GNOME out of the box without first installing Tweak Tool and even then, you can't change the font of GNOME Shell itself. If you dare customize the CSS to change it, you're implementing "hacks". I wouldn't be surprised if the ability to change fonts was removed from GNOME and GTK. Not to mention that GNOME devs seem to think that volume control slider isn't required in their music app and GNOME file picker still doesn't have thumbnails. So yeah, basic features are missing. https://jayfax.neocities.org/mediocrity/gnome-has-no-thumbnails-in-the-file-picker.html https://jayfax.neocities.org/mediocrity/gnome-has-no-thumbna... Then again, it's probably a useless debate at this point since everything is subjective. I'm confident that one could come up with a desktop environment with windows turned upside down and inside out with colors changing randomly every second and many people would still like it and call it "polished" and "refined".
  - lavabiopsy 5y ago
    In some situations, changing the font could absolutely considered a hack -- this can break apps in subtle ways by messing with the spacing and sizing of elements, and it gets worse if you designed your app for some specific form factor(s). It's perfectly reasonable for an app developer to say they only support certain fonts. I'm sorry if that's disappointing to hear, but every app developer cannot be expected to test their apps with every single font in existence that someone wants to use. The default apps that come with GNOME are designed to be simple and unobtrusive. They're not trying to be a Photoshop or a Final Cut Pro. If you don't like them you are of course free to install and use some other alternative, for example KDE apps should run just fine inside GNOME, and vice versa. I don't have any comments on the file chooser, anything we say is flogging a dead horse. You can search some previous discussions on reddit for all the times that's been discussed (unproductively) over the last 15 years.
    - ayushnix 5y ago
      > In some situations, changing the font could absolutely considered a hack I'm eagerly waiting for the day when it becomes impossible to make any sort of customisation at all in GNOME/GTK apps besides what the app developer intends. Now that user themes have been axed, I hope fonts, font size, and icons are axed as well and Adwaita, Cantarell (that's the default GNOME font right?), and GNOME Icons are enforced everywhere. It certainly won't be surprising for me if this happens and things seem to headed in this direction. I'm sorry to see that Jeremy still hasn't figured out that GNOME/GTK isn't a community project and is still trying to engage with their devs about themes even though the recoloring API page clearly says that system themes won't be supported. > for example KDE apps should run just fine inside GNOME, and vice versa Yeah, I doubt that. Even if somehow it does look fine right now, I don't think it will soon. https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gtk/-/issues/3409 https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gtk/-/issues/3409 > I don't have any comments on the file chooser, anything we say is flogging a dead horse. Yeah, I know. It's pointless to have discussions, especially when the project in question isn't a community project and follows the "look but don't touch" open source model of development.
      - 5y ago
nine_k 5y ago
> why lots of developers have chosen GNOME/GTK to build their own desktop environment Because the licensing status of Qt was for a long time somehow murky [1]. By 2000 when it was GPL'd many now-current desktop environments have already been born. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qt_(software)#History_of_Qt https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qt_(software)#History_of_Qt
- j-james 5y ago
  There also aren't any Qt bindings for C, to my knowledge.
lavabiopsy 5y ago
Please don't jump to these baseless conclusions based on a misinterpretation of one twitter post. The issue here is with libadwaita, not with GTK, and if you actually read the gitlab issue chain by that person then you will see that progress is being made: https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/libadwaita/-/issues/259 https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/libadwaita/-/issues/259 >It's a mistake to consider GNOME/GTK as a community project. You're getting this wrong -- GNOME is very much a community project, but it's one that happens to be heavily driven by designers. Maybe this is unusual for an open source project? The general point with the request is that you can't just try to make a desktop that re-uses some GNOME components while also throwing out everything their designers did, the end result there is that users have a bad time. This is not about making someone conform to anyone's way, this is about distros working with app developers to provide the best possible experience for users. Switching toolkits is not really going to fix anything here, you will run into the same issues with any other toolkit if you try to restyle apps in ways that were unsupported and unintended by the app developer.
- ayushnix 5y ago
  > Please don't jump to these baseless conclusions based on a misinterpretation of one twitter post. The issue here is with libadwaita, not with GTK, and if you actually read the gitlab issue chain by that person then you will see that progress is being made: https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/libadwaita/-/issues/259 https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/libadwaita/-/issues/259 Please don't dismiss my statements as baseless. The presence of an issue does not imply progress. Jeremy is asking for a theming API or a method to let apps use a different theme besides Adwaita. > Jeremy: I'm curious if you think there is a best way to have GNOME core apps continue to use our own theme. > Clasen: If you ask me, the answer is no. To the best of my understanding, linking to libadwaita is an explicit decision to use the Adwaita theme. I don't think there's any confusion or baseless assumption on my end. > You're getting this wrong -- GNOME is very much a community project Doesn't look like a community project to me, not in the least. It's as much a community project as Android (AOSP) is. > This is not about making someone conform to anyone's way, this is about distros working with app developers to provide the best possible experience for users. And GNOME/GTK devs get to decide what's the best possible experience for the user — removing any customization possibilities for the sake of consistency. If anyone doesn't like that, they can piss off. This is pretty much what "making someone conform to someone's way" looks like.

SAI_Peregrinus 5y ago

Hasn't that always been the trade-off of GNOME over KDE? GNOME is very much the "we know what's right for you" desktop environment for Linux, KDE is the "customize ALL the things" desktop environment.

Abishek_Muthian 5y ago

I recently switched from KDE to Upstream GNOME because I was tired of long pending bugs(e.g. Dolphin/Baloo going rogue) while new features keep getting added. I was surprised to find how refined GNOME is, everything just works. I understood that my misconceptions of GNOME was because of how it was integrated in the distros especially inconsistent theming and this letter states why it is so. I can confidently recommend upstream GNOME confidently to someone migrating from Windows/macOS to Linux for the first time over other DE due this consistency.

ayushnix 5y ago
It would obviously be easier for GNOME to ship an apparently more refined experience when customization possibilities are negligible and basic features are missing. One can't even change the fonts of GNOME out of the box without first installing Tweak Tool and even then, you can't change the font of GNOME Shell itself. If you dare customize the CSS to change it, you're implementing "hacks". I wouldn't be surprised if the ability to change fonts was removed from GNOME and GTK. Not to mention that GNOME devs seem to think that volume control slider isn't required in their music app and GNOME file picker still doesn't have thumbnails. So yeah, basic features are missing. https://jayfax.neocities.org/mediocrity/gnome-has-no-thumbnails-in-the-file-picker.html https://jayfax.neocities.org/mediocrity/gnome-has-no-thumbna... Then again, it's probably a useless debate at this point since everything is subjective. I'm confident that one could come up with a desktop environment with windows turned upside down and inside out with colors changing randomly every second and many people would still like it and call it "polished" and "refined".
- lavabiopsy 5y ago
  In some situations, changing the font could absolutely considered a hack -- this can break apps in subtle ways by messing with the spacing and sizing of elements, and it gets worse if you designed your app for some specific form factor(s). It's perfectly reasonable for an app developer to say they only support certain fonts. I'm sorry if that's disappointing to hear, but every app developer cannot be expected to test their apps with every single font in existence that someone wants to use. The default apps that come with GNOME are designed to be simple and unobtrusive. They're not trying to be a Photoshop or a Final Cut Pro. If you don't like them you are of course free to install and use some other alternative, for example KDE apps should run just fine inside GNOME, and vice versa. I don't have any comments on the file chooser, anything we say is flogging a dead horse. You can search some previous discussions on reddit for all the times that's been discussed (unproductively) over the last 15 years.
  - ayushnix 5y ago
    > In some situations, changing the font could absolutely considered a hack I'm eagerly waiting for the day when it becomes impossible to make any sort of customisation at all in GNOME/GTK apps besides what the app developer intends. Now that user themes have been axed, I hope fonts, font size, and icons are axed as well and Adwaita, Cantarell (that's the default GNOME font right?), and GNOME Icons are enforced everywhere. It certainly won't be surprising for me if this happens and things seem to headed in this direction. I'm sorry to see that Jeremy still hasn't figured out that GNOME/GTK isn't a community project and is still trying to engage with their devs about themes even though the recoloring API page clearly says that system themes won't be supported. > for example KDE apps should run just fine inside GNOME, and vice versa Yeah, I doubt that. Even if somehow it does look fine right now, I don't think it will soon. https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gtk/-/issues/3409 https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gtk/-/issues/3409 > I don't have any comments on the file chooser, anything we say is flogging a dead horse. Yeah, I know. It's pointless to have discussions, especially when the project in question isn't a community project and follows the "look but don't touch" open source model of development.
    - 5y ago

nine_k 5y ago

> why lots of developers have chosen GNOME/GTK to build their own desktop environment Because the licensing status of Qt was for a long time somehow murky [1]. By 2000 when it was GPL'd many now-current desktop environments have already been born. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qt_(software)#History_of_Qt https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qt_(software)#History_of_Qt

j-james 5y ago
There also aren't any Qt bindings for C, to my knowledge.

lavabiopsy 5y ago

Please don't jump to these baseless conclusions based on a misinterpretation of one twitter post. The issue here is with libadwaita, not with GTK, and if you actually read the gitlab issue chain by that person then you will see that progress is being made: https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/libadwaita/-/issues/259 https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/libadwaita/-/issues/259 >It's a mistake to consider GNOME/GTK as a community project. You're getting this wrong -- GNOME is very much a community project, but it's one that happens to be heavily driven by designers. Maybe this is unusual for an open source project? The general point with the request is that you can't just try to make a desktop that re-uses some GNOME components while also throwing out everything their designers did, the end result there is that users have a bad time. This is not about making someone conform to anyone's way, this is about distros working with app developers to provide the best possible experience for users. Switching toolkits is not really going to fix anything here, you will run into the same issues with any other toolkit if you try to restyle apps in ways that were unsupported and unintended by the app developer.

ayushnix 5y ago
> Please don't jump to these baseless conclusions based on a misinterpretation of one twitter post. The issue here is with libadwaita, not with GTK, and if you actually read the gitlab issue chain by that person then you will see that progress is being made: https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/libadwaita/-/issues/259 https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/libadwaita/-/issues/259 Please don't dismiss my statements as baseless. The presence of an issue does not imply progress. Jeremy is asking for a theming API or a method to let apps use a different theme besides Adwaita. > Jeremy: I'm curious if you think there is a best way to have GNOME core apps continue to use our own theme. > Clasen: If you ask me, the answer is no. To the best of my understanding, linking to libadwaita is an explicit decision to use the Adwaita theme. I don't think there's any confusion or baseless assumption on my end. > You're getting this wrong -- GNOME is very much a community project Doesn't look like a community project to me, not in the least. It's as much a community project as Android (AOSP) is. > This is not about making someone conform to anyone's way, this is about distros working with app developers to provide the best possible experience for users. And GNOME/GTK devs get to decide what's the best possible experience for the user — removing any customization possibilities for the sake of consistency. If anyone doesn't like that, they can piss off. This is pretty much what "making someone conform to someone's way" looks like.