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It’s worth noting that, even if you think shaming encourages people to get vaccinated, these stories are still bad because they are almost never seen by the peo

by flaque 5y ago

It’s worth noting that, even if you think shaming encourages people to get vaccinated, these stories are still bad because they are almost never seen by the people who you’re trying to shame. Unvaccinated people don’t like and share stories about unvaccinated people having a tube shoved down their throat and then dying alone in a hospital. The more outrageous the irony, the less it actually appeals to someone who hasn’t gotten the vaccine yet. Similarly, many of these stories focus heavily on the most crazy, most irrational reasons to not get the vaccine. Most folks who don’t get the vaccine are coming from very understandable places. - They may believe that they already got COVID and think that, because they already got it, then they’re “immune” (which is wrong, but reasonable to assume) - They have heard people they consider smart and reputable, like Eric Weinstein, claim misleading or false statistics about deaths from the vaccine. (Again, wrong, but understandable) - they may still think that the vaccine is “not FDA approved”, due to poor messaging from the FDA. (It is approved by the way, not just emergency authorization) - they may not have time to go get a vaccine. Not everyone can take time off work - they may be afraid of needles, or the side effects, and are unwilling to admit it. I was afraid of the side effects before getting my vaccine (though it turned out fine) All of these are irrational reasons, since COVID is super contagious, absolutely awful to get, and puts many people, even those who survive, alone in the hospital with a tube shoved down their throat. But they’re reasonable fears; understandable fears. And shaming people for entirely reasonable fears does not get more people vaccinated. A lot of people seem to care more about their anger towards unvaccinated people, and their desire to shame them, than actually stopping the pandemic by taking strategies that would actually get them vaccinated.

SquishyPanda23 5y ago
None of the reasons you listed are reasonable reasons for people to not get vaccinated.
- flaque 5y ago
  Correct, they’re not reasonable reasons to not get vaccinated. But they are reasonable fears to have. They’re normal fears, that make sense from their point of view. They’re factually wrong, but understandable.
  - SquishyPanda23 5y ago
    The same can be said of any fear that causes someone to hurt people. The abusive husband has a reasonable fear of being abandoned. The white supremacist has a reasonable fear of losing their jobs to competition. Etc etc Being able to give a casual explanation for the behavior doesn't justify it. At some point people have an obligation to not harm others.
    - flaque 5y ago
      The difference is that it doesn't matter if the behavior is justified. The only thing that matters is getting them vaccinated. Even if you have to forgive them, even if you have to give them sympathy they don't deserve. Shaming doesn't work when the half population is unvaccinated. You actually have to convince people, even if they don't deserve the effort. Because if you don't get them vaccinated, many people will die.
      - SquishyPanda23 5y ago
        Hey, sorry I missed the statement in the original post where you called them irrational. Apologies for not reading more carefully. In that sense my original response wasn't disagreeing with you. I do disagree with you tactically, though. The percentage of the adults in my country (the US) who have received one dose is closer to 2/3. That leaves about 1/3 of eligible people unvaccinated. This is roughly the same 1/3 of people who don't believe in evolution, and the same 1/3 that believe that Covid is a hoax, or that you can beat it by taking horse dewormer. Trying to fight this by winning over hearts and minds is like when serious scientists try to debate evolution with creationists. It's a waste of everyone's time. The only way to get the vaccine numbers up is to make vaccines mandatory for school, employment, travel, etc like other vaccines are.
        kcplate 5y ago
        Your comment seems to make the assumption that this 1/3 unvaccinated are the same folks that are anti-evolution, Covid is a hoax, and ivermectin proponents. That is certainly some of the unvaxed and probably the most vocal, but you are leaving out a whole other diverse group of folks. https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/31/us/virus-unvaccinated-americans.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/31/us/virus-unvaccinated-ame...
- crazy_horse 5y ago
  Humans often aren't reasonable, but two things they respond poorly to are hate and shame.
jays 5y ago
That's the must well spoken summary of this issue I've seen to date.
Spellman 5y ago
I'm not so sure. All of my friends who aren't getting the vaccine and vocal about it are pushing some pretty out there reasons. It may have started from relatively reasonable reasons, but it has morphed into an especially vitrolic ideology and in-group signaling rather quickly. Also, a lot of polls show there is a sticky group of people who will never get it and that population hasn't changed much over time. So at this point there's not much you can move the needle on them via facts and all that. Doesn't mean we shouldn't stop trying. Highly recommend the You Are Not So Smart podcast on how to have beneficial discussions with anti-vax individuals. One key is don't use social media (eg in public). https://youarenotsosmart.com/2021/08/23/yanss-213-how-to-improve-your-chances-of-nudging-the-vaccine-hesitant-away-from-hesitancy-and-toward-vaccination/ https://youarenotsosmart.com/2021/08/23/yanss-213-how-to-imp...
- crazy_horse 5y ago
  That's a huge part of this, a lot of the shaming is performative. It's less about the person and more about signaling.
- flaque 5y ago
  Right, but you don’t break through to someone who’s in an “in-group” by mocking their group. It just creates more in-group / out-group. I’m not saying you should buy their arguments. You need to give people an “out”. If folks approach it as proving that the unvaccinated are “wrong”, then it just makes them dig in their heels.
kcplate 5y ago
> A lot of people seem to care more about their anger towards unvaccinated people, and their desire to shame them, than actually stopping the pandemic by taking strategies that would actually get them vaccinated. Completely agree with this. Of all the vitriol I see…even on this very thread, it feels more about finding a socially acceptable way of venting hate about groups of people (obese, rural/religious/right-wingers) that they already hated and complained about even before COVID-19 was a thing.

by flaque 5y ago

SquishyPanda23 5y ago

None of the reasons you listed are reasonable reasons for people to not get vaccinated.

flaque 5y ago
Correct, they’re not reasonable reasons to not get vaccinated. But they are reasonable fears to have. They’re normal fears, that make sense from their point of view. They’re factually wrong, but understandable.
- SquishyPanda23 5y ago
  The same can be said of any fear that causes someone to hurt people. The abusive husband has a reasonable fear of being abandoned. The white supremacist has a reasonable fear of losing their jobs to competition. Etc etc Being able to give a casual explanation for the behavior doesn't justify it. At some point people have an obligation to not harm others.
  - flaque 5y ago
    The difference is that it doesn't matter if the behavior is justified. The only thing that matters is getting them vaccinated. Even if you have to forgive them, even if you have to give them sympathy they don't deserve. Shaming doesn't work when the half population is unvaccinated. You actually have to convince people, even if they don't deserve the effort. Because if you don't get them vaccinated, many people will die.
    - SquishyPanda23 5y ago
      Hey, sorry I missed the statement in the original post where you called them irrational. Apologies for not reading more carefully. In that sense my original response wasn't disagreeing with you. I do disagree with you tactically, though. The percentage of the adults in my country (the US) who have received one dose is closer to 2/3. That leaves about 1/3 of eligible people unvaccinated. This is roughly the same 1/3 of people who don't believe in evolution, and the same 1/3 that believe that Covid is a hoax, or that you can beat it by taking horse dewormer. Trying to fight this by winning over hearts and minds is like when serious scientists try to debate evolution with creationists. It's a waste of everyone's time. The only way to get the vaccine numbers up is to make vaccines mandatory for school, employment, travel, etc like other vaccines are.
      - kcplate 5y ago
        Your comment seems to make the assumption that this 1/3 unvaccinated are the same folks that are anti-evolution, Covid is a hoax, and ivermectin proponents. That is certainly some of the unvaxed and probably the most vocal, but you are leaving out a whole other diverse group of folks. https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/31/us/virus-unvaccinated-americans.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/31/us/virus-unvaccinated-ame...
crazy_horse 5y ago
Humans often aren't reasonable, but two things they respond poorly to are hate and shame.

jays 5y ago

That's the must well spoken summary of this issue I've seen to date.

Spellman 5y ago

I'm not so sure. All of my friends who aren't getting the vaccine and vocal about it are pushing some pretty out there reasons. It may have started from relatively reasonable reasons, but it has morphed into an especially vitrolic ideology and in-group signaling rather quickly. Also, a lot of polls show there is a sticky group of people who will never get it and that population hasn't changed much over time. So at this point there's not much you can move the needle on them via facts and all that. Doesn't mean we shouldn't stop trying. Highly recommend the You Are Not So Smart podcast on how to have beneficial discussions with anti-vax individuals. One key is don't use social media (eg in public). https://youarenotsosmart.com/2021/08/23/yanss-213-how-to-improve-your-chances-of-nudging-the-vaccine-hesitant-away-from-hesitancy-and-toward-vaccination/ https://youarenotsosmart.com/2021/08/23/yanss-213-how-to-imp...

crazy_horse 5y ago
That's a huge part of this, a lot of the shaming is performative. It's less about the person and more about signaling.
flaque 5y ago
Right, but you don’t break through to someone who’s in an “in-group” by mocking their group. It just creates more in-group / out-group. I’m not saying you should buy their arguments. You need to give people an “out”. If folks approach it as proving that the unvaccinated are “wrong”, then it just makes them dig in their heels.

kcplate 5y ago

> A lot of people seem to care more about their anger towards unvaccinated people, and their desire to shame them, than actually stopping the pandemic by taking strategies that would actually get them vaccinated. Completely agree with this. Of all the vitriol I see…even on this very thread, it feels more about finding a socially acceptable way of venting hate about groups of people (obese, rural/religious/right-wingers) that they already hated and complained about even before COVID-19 was a thing.