7 ms·

Stop Death Shaming

41 points by hncurious 5y ago

broberts01 5y ago
They should be shamed. It would be fine if they didn't take the vaccine and stayed home but they don't do that. They go to the hospital and take up valuable bed space that I would argue thy don't deserve. I realistically don't know how much the intent is to persuade people to get the vaccine. As they point out, it wouldn't be a good strategy, but at this point, not much is going to change a person's mind over it anyway.
- eventreduce 5y ago
  Most people do not "deserve" bed space because most sickness is selfmade. People smoke, drink and eat too much, so they all deserve to die?
  - ehPReth 5y ago
    I do at least! But.. no one will kill me :(
    - Ternari 5y ago
      Let me know if you need someone to talk with. Contact info is in profile
  - lotsofpulp 5y ago
    The context is different when there are issues with hospital capacity and there is a known solution that costs nothing to prevent hospitals’ from being overburdened.
    - bazooka_penguin 5y ago
      The context is the same in regards to the self afflicted conditions he mentioned
      - jimbob45 5y ago
        Quitting smoking and losing weight are incredibly difficult and take years. Getting a jab takes five minutes and no effort whatsoever. You even get paid to do it at some places.
      - lotsofpulp 5y ago
        The context is not the same since those conditions are not causing hospitals to surpass capacity in the short term.
  - dundarious 5y ago
    Habitual lifestyle factors are not the same as the exogenous novel coronavirus.
    - sattoshi 5y ago
      There is nothing habitual about stuffing food down your throat to the point of obesity.
      - dundarious 5y ago
        I’m not going to quote the dictionary for you, but that’s indisputably false.
  - Legion 5y ago
    You overeating doesn't give everyone else around you diabetes. I'm never going to buy the attempts to equate getting a personal preventable illness with willful and malicious disregard of the health of everyone surrounding you. We're pretty understanding of a person who struggles with alcoholism. We're a whole lot less understanding when they choose to get behind the wheel.
    - kmonsen 5y ago
      Riding a motorbike? Does nothing for anyone that cannot be done in a safer way but kills people and sometimes others. Drinking alcohol? I think making fun of someone dying is way too harsh. All that being said I think vaccine certificates should be introduced with some ways of testing out for people that cannot take the vaccine.
      - jzoch 5y ago
        Its culturally acceptable to shame drunk drivers, smokers (in public spaces), and more. Im not necessarily agreeing we should but it certainly follows that shaming people for endangering others re: vaccines is in line with modern cultural norms.
    - marcusverus 5y ago
      > You overeating doesn't give everyone else around you diabetes. This seems like a deflection. Given GP's argument, a better question would be are obese people more likely to spread COVID than non-obese people? Well, we know someone who has contracted COVID can expect worse outcomes if they're obese. Given that, it seems safe to assume that obese people are more likely to get breakthrough infections and/or that they have slower recoveries (i.e. more coughing/sneezing and more spreading COVID) than non-obese people. So it seems reasonable (in a back-of-the-envelope sort of way) to infer that obese folks are more likely to spread COVID than non-obese folks. Now, back to GP's argument--If we're suggesting that non-vaccinated people are less deserving of healthcare than vaccinated people because they're contributing the the spread of COVID, why wouldn't we treat obese folks the same?
    - refurb 5y ago
  - emilsedgh 5y ago
    In smoking, drinking, eating too much, there are pleasures. Thus, making it difficult for people to stop. Stopping them requires fighting real urges. That's why they deserve sympathy. In not getting vaccinated there's no pleasure. Only stupidity and ignorance.
    - mioasndo 5y ago
      I'm not sure what your argument is? That pleasure is what determines if something is ok to do? People have reasons for not taking a vaccine the same way people have reasons for drinking. They have their own reasons, it is their choice.
      - emilsedgh 5y ago
        Comment above me claimed we should have sympathy for unvvacinated people [that have access to vaccine] who die, just like we do sympathize with people who die due to smoking, drinking, etc. I argued that being vaccinated is not comparable to those, because unlike them, your body doesn't have any urge to not vaccinated. It's very easy to get vaccinated. It's just a stupid decision.
        mioasndo 5y ago
        Not getting vaccinated is a stupid decision, but smoking is not? Or you think people are spontaneously addicted to smoking, drinking, drugs? Or you think that people randomly decide to not get the vaccine because they just wake up stupid one day? Guess what, in a free society people can choose what they put in their bodies, regardless of how much pleasure you think they get from it, or how stupid you think it is.
  - kmonsen 5y ago
    Totalt agree, I personally took up valuable hospital space after a biking accident. I feel not taking the vaccine is a bit different but cannot really express this in an objective way so I guess it is not.
- usefulcat 5y ago
  > They should be shamed. On an emotional level, I can't help but agree. But.. frequently we have to choose between doing what feels good and doing what is effective. Assuming, of course, that we even notice when there is a difference between the two (which, frankly, there very often is).
magwa101 5y ago
We get really upset about drunk driving. Smoking indoors and in particular around kids. We're going to get similarly mad unvaccinated people taking others down with their Darwin Awards.
- wycy 5y ago
  The worst part is most of the people covid takes down have already reproduced, disqualifying them from Darwin Awards.
okdjnfweonfe 5y ago
finishing it with the anecdote of "so I tried my new fangled plan of convincing a person, and then they still wern't convinced" somewhat nullifies the author's entire point
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
savanaly 5y ago
I'm always aghast when I go on social media or Reddit and see all the things people say about the unvaccinated dead. I can scarcely believe that the folks that post those things are nominally on the same side as me on most issues of substance. I get past it by telling myself that there are always tons of bots and shills in the pay of all manner of nation states and organizations trolling those exact places posting whatever will ferment polarization.
- ogogmad 5y ago
  The "Darwin Awards" once had an unnerving degree of pop culture acceptance. [edit] They might still.
  - InvaderFizz 5y ago
    IIRC, Darwin Awards were always targeted at singular instances of actions that could be charitably described as unwise. What is happening today is just the use of anything for the advancement of tribal signaling and catharsis derived from the suffering of the "other." It exists on every side, acceptability of these behaviors depends largely on in-group vs out-group status of the perpetrator.
    - ogogmad 5y ago
      I might be sentimental in thinking that you shouldn't kick someone when they're down. Dying for your mistakes is one way to be "down", and mocking someone is a great way of "kicking" them. Goes beyond tribalism.
    - ogogmad 5y ago
      On the subject of Darwin Awards, that website didn't have a very good rationalisation for celebrating those people's deaths, except for some social Darwinian bullshit. At least here, they sort of seem to have one.
- taeric 5y ago
  The bots and shills angle is about all I have to hold onto sanity right now. Would be great to know the actual numbers. Or terrifying.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
whatgoodisaroad 5y ago
Does this writer genuinely think they are the first to think of convincing people to get vaccinated? And all we needed was a little facts and logic?
otterley 5y ago
Stop telling people to stop doing things. It's very rude. Explain to us why the behavior is bad, instead.
- loeg 5y ago
  > Stop telling people to stop doing things. It's very rude. > Explain to us why the behavior is bad, instead. The words after the headline (attempt to) do that.
- mcguire 5y ago
  Because when you are a jackass and everyone applauds you, you are still a jackass.
- bartread 5y ago
  I'd also add to this, get to the point quicker. I got really bored with this article about three paragraphs in. You want to persuade me? Start by not wasting my attention. I'm sick and tired of people telling me what to do under virtually all everyday circumstances, and especially so when the rationale is faulty (or at least up for debate). It gets even more wearing when they take a long time about it or use an unnecessarily large quantity of words.
- flaque 5y ago
  If you shame people, they dig in their heels. If you care about stopping the pandemic, you need to create an environment in which someone can safely stop believing their falsehoods. You actually have to convince people, regardless of whether or not they deserve your effort in convincing them.
  - falcolas 5y ago
    Human history, and studies of human behavior, show that “convincing” people with logic and facts largely doesn’t work. Their worldview needs to change. And little changes worldviews better than a personal existential threat. Like death.
tomohawk 5y ago
It's amazing how years of anti-vax nonsense went nowhere. But, in a few months, all of this shaming and politicizing have done so much damage. Public health rests on trust, not mocking, not shaming, not coercion.
- minitech 5y ago
  > It's amazing how years of anti-vax nonsense went nowhere. “Nowhere”? It’s gotten so bad that there are measles outbreaks now.
- actually_a_dog 5y ago
  Who's being coerced? People have the free choice to take or not take the vaccine. Both decisions have consequences. That is it. No coercion is involved.
  - HKH2 5y ago
    Maybe there's no coercion where you live, but where I live some people who are unvaccinated get a fine in a form of a forced test every two weeks that they have to pay for, no matter how risk-averse they are. A vaccinated socialite is far more of a problem than an unvaccinated loner.
    - actually_a_dog 5y ago
      Those are called "consequences." You make your choice, you are responsible for it, both the unvaccinated and the "vaccinated socialite" you want to demonize. Do you think you, or the "vaccinated socialite" should be able to opt out of your responsibility to participate in a common sense public health measure without consequences?
      - HKH2 5y ago
        I wasn't demonizing anyone. Vaccination is simply not as effective as people would have you believe.
crazy_horse 5y ago
Reddit has a subreddit dedicated to this. I understand the justifications and the frustration, but so much of that is people being hateful. I've seen everything from race, hair style, weight, religion, etc mocked because the people deserve it. I think it's the most toxic part of humanity. I hope reddit closes hateful subs like this. Here is a similar article about that sub. https://melmagazine.com/en-us/story/herman-cain-awards https://melmagazine.com/en-us/story/herman-cain-awards
- beaconstudios 5y ago
  not surprising to be honest, reddit is a pretty vitriolic place.
  - WalterSear 5y ago
    IMHO, this place is more toxic. Sure, there is a much stronger social policing of personal attacks and sophomoric comments, but within those bounds, some people appear to feel freer to make genuinely cutting comments and express vitriolic opinions.
    - beaconstudios 5y ago
      they're the same place (literally, same demographics and that), HN just pushes people to be passive-aggressive instead of regular aggressive because of the rules on tone, even though the spirit of the rules is to be inquisitive rather than abrasive.
      - WalterSear 5y ago
        I disagree. 14% of the US use reddit++. It's possible, and IMHO, likely that most HN users are reddit users. It's definitely not the case that most reddit users are HN users. t In my utterly subjective opinion, the users of HN are generally older, and almost certainly more STEM oriented than their reddit counterparts. Both their age and their experience might explain why they are more skilled at eviscerating a commenter while staying within the letter of HN social norms and moderation. Moreover, and I reiterate, IMHSO, the more toxic users on HN tend to be primarily reactionary in political persuasion, whereas, reddit has a much more wider political varieties of jackass. Perhaps this is a result of there not being subHN forums to where people would self-segregate. ++ https://www.oberlo.com/blog/reddit-statistics https://www.oberlo.com/blog/reddit-statistics
jerkstate 5y ago
I don’t think the unvaccinated mind the shaming as much as the threats - to be denied health care, sent to camps, fired from their jobs, forbidden to buy food, forbidden freedom of movement, etc. those things matter a lot more than “shaming”
flaque 5y ago
It’s worth noting that, even if you think shaming encourages people to get vaccinated, these stories are still bad because they are almost never seen by the people who you’re trying to shame. Unvaccinated people don’t like and share stories about unvaccinated people having a tube shoved down their throat and then dying alone in a hospital. The more outrageous the irony, the less it actually appeals to someone who hasn’t gotten the vaccine yet. Similarly, many of these stories focus heavily on the most crazy, most irrational reasons to not get the vaccine. Most folks who don’t get the vaccine are coming from very understandable places. - They may believe that they already got COVID and think that, because they already got it, then they’re “immune” (which is wrong, but reasonable to assume) - They have heard people they consider smart and reputable, like Eric Weinstein, claim misleading or false statistics about deaths from the vaccine. (Again, wrong, but understandable) - they may still think that the vaccine is “not FDA approved”, due to poor messaging from the FDA. (It is approved by the way, not just emergency authorization) - they may not have time to go get a vaccine. Not everyone can take time off work - they may be afraid of needles, or the side effects, and are unwilling to admit it. I was afraid of the side effects before getting my vaccine (though it turned out fine) All of these are irrational reasons, since COVID is super contagious, absolutely awful to get, and puts many people, even those who survive, alone in the hospital with a tube shoved down their throat. But they’re reasonable fears; understandable fears. And shaming people for entirely reasonable fears does not get more people vaccinated. A lot of people seem to care more about their anger towards unvaccinated people, and their desire to shame them, than actually stopping the pandemic by taking strategies that would actually get them vaccinated.
- SquishyPanda23 5y ago
  None of the reasons you listed are reasonable reasons for people to not get vaccinated.
  - flaque 5y ago
    Correct, they’re not reasonable reasons to not get vaccinated. But they are reasonable fears to have. They’re normal fears, that make sense from their point of view. They’re factually wrong, but understandable.
yongjik 5y ago
IMHO, the most surprising (and disturbing) thing about people refusing the vaccine, catching COVID, and dying is that there are so many of them. Enough for the media to talk about a random new dead person every day. Enough to sustain a shitty subreddit. In a country where vaccination is free. I agree that mocking them isn't productive, but at this stage, it feels more like a coping mechanism. When the world around you stops making sense, what are you going to do, other than laugh?
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
siod 5y ago
People are angry. They see vaccine refusers as prolonging the pandemic and putting their loved ones/everyone at risk for nothing.
- _3u10 5y ago
  Given that it spreads faster amongst the unvaccinated it’s the vaccines that are prolonging it. The entire flatten the curve narrative is about making it last as long as possible. With deltas R value of 5 to 8 it could be over by Christmas even with vaccines and masks.
  - Smoosh 5y ago
    > entire flatten the curve narrative is about I thought it was about reducing total deaths by not overloading health care services.
    - _3u10 5y ago
      Given the capacity of hospitals to treat everyone, assuming we can max them out, it takes about 40 years til everyone has it, assuming in those 40 years, there are no additional births.
  - _rpd 5y ago
    "Flattening the curve" is about not overwhleming hospital resources, to avoid non-COVID avoidable deaths spiking.
- ipaddr 5y ago
  They have fallen upto a media trap setup to push blame while ignoring everything else. You hear the same in places where 90% have gotten two shots. The vaccines don't work so well. If you want to reduce the curve you need to go out 70% less. No one wants to share that getting a vaccine was never enough. We were told just get a shot and it will kill covid you can go back to normal living. The vaccines are not that good.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
cercatrova 5y ago
It is not my problem if people who are unvaccinated would rather inject horse deworming paste than take a vaccine. They suffer the consequences of their actions and they Darwin themselves out of existence. I feel no sympathy for these people. In fact, I feel less than zero sympathy, because they take up space in hospitals for people that do truly need it, such as children, immunocompromised, or those otherwise unable to take the vaccine. So, I will shame away. For those saying that many of these people come from an understandable place, I cannot agree. If you read the posts on r/HermanCainAward, most of the people shown are openly mocking the vaccine, that it's a "liberal creation" and it is implied that they are not taking it merely due to it being pushed by the government, that they do not want their "freedoms" (to die or take medicine for animals, I presume) being "infringed."
SquishyPanda23 5y ago
Unvaccinated people are basically drunk drivers who won't shut up about their right to drive drunk. Mocking their deaths won't convince them to become reasonable, but you can't blame people for feeling schadenfreude.
beervirus 5y ago
> Mocking the unvaccinated dead does not save lives. Sometimes it does. I personally know one person who finally got vaccinated exactly because of these stories—and because of the mockery.
devwastaken 5y ago
We also have to stop shaming information, and the people who want to discuss it. In many places, especially on the net, You have to say "the vaccine is completely safe all the time", not "the vaccine is overwhelmingly safe and effective, some may be at risk of life threatening blood clots, and vaccination does not entirely prevent infection, nor does it guarantee significant protection from future mutations which are expected to continue". You especially cannot talk about CDC data, you can't compare death/injury of other things, and you can't talk about the 1920's influenza outbreak that killed half a million people. If you try to talk about those things, you're shamed as a crazy anti-vaxxer whom is going to kill everyone. Even if you've been vaccinated and follow CDC guidelines. That's how new anti-vaxxers are being made. Otherwise reasonable people are being told they're crazy anti-vaxxers for simply talking about facts, asking important questions, pointing out inconvenient data. The actual experts whom can talk about such things are being drowned out by the flood of reactionaries.
- rex-mundi 5y ago
  And all the down votes prove you right! It would be nice if people could talk about this situation in measured calm ways and actually treat reasonable statements as such
gmuslera 5y ago
If they are dead you are not talking to them. You are talking with the people that did the same as them, and are still alive (and with a bit of luck, that didn't got the disease yet). And besides personal freedom, in a society you are free to do what affects only you, your freedom should stop where the rights of the rest of the people begins. Should you shame or condemn someone that choose to drive drunk and kills a couple of elderly people in the road? That is what they are doing.
dundarious 5y ago
Ironic reversals are funny. e.g., Looney Tunes. Comparisons with other kinds of deaths that have an ironic reversal component are often comparing far milder scenarios. For the vaccines scenario, to use a phrase from the Monster Factory video series, there are “no middle sliders”. It’s a free option to not die. If your cultural/political milieu or personal philosophy leads you to not take that free option, it’s at least a little bit funny. If you are a leader or evangelist within that milieu, I think it definitely crosses the line into acceptably openly funny. Please note that this obviously doesn’t mean I condone every action by people who also think it’s funny. For private persons, a basic attempt to anonymize and unlink humorous comments from the person and their family seems like a reasonably conscientious thing to do, and makes it fine by me.
- drcongo 5y ago
  There's a reason that "List of inventors killed by their own inventions" is such a popular page on Wikipedia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_inventors_killed_by_their_own_inventions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_inventors_killed_by_th...
totetsu 5y ago
As soon as laugh at someone's death, and make judgements on if they deserved it or not, we devalue Human life. That can't be a net positive. No matter what we think of their behavior. .. once your laughing at death, where is the philosophical barrier between that and seeing disabled people as useless eaters? The reason people are dieing is at least partially because of complete lack of leaders action to fund pandemic prevention efforts in the past years despite clear evidence and warnings of the need to do so. If a kid drowns in a pool where there are no fencing laws, well sure dumb kid, but also..
- Gibbon1 5y ago
  I've been saving my ire for business, media, and political leaders pushing denialism for ideological and crass personal/political reasons. The hapless people that believed them and died as a result are their victims. The doctors and nurse that had to deal with that are victims as are the family left behind. On the other hand you have a huge contingent of people in the US who pride themselves on being basically ungovernable. I'll point out countries that were successful dealing with covid are either authoritarian. Or have populations that are governable.
  - totetsu 5y ago
    Even the old hat anarchists of NZ are all for lockdowns and vacation. That being said I know a few people who probably hid their automatic weapons rather than hand them in when they got banned.. maybe theres a difference between politically idealistic anarchists and phycologically motivated egoists.
  - me_me_me 5y ago
    > The hapless people that believed them and died as a result are their victims. At what point you are gullible person, and when do you turn into willing culprit? > The doctors and nurse that had to deal with that are victims as are the family left behind. Now they are the real victims and heroes, risking death for someone who willingly put themselves in danger due to their views. Also laughing at people who died is pointless, they are dead and they don't care for mockery. But I sure target the griefing families that might or might not had hand in antivax movement.
JohnTHaller 5y ago
I don't know anyone personally who has been able to convince an anti-vaxxer/vaccine hesitant person to get vaccinated. My friend's unvaccinated sibling died of Covid-19 a few days ago. Sibling wasn't high risk or older. They had argued about it last month. Sibling was consuming conservative media and surrounded by similar folks. The vaccine didn't work on my Dad. He's on immunosupressive meds so he doesn't reject my kidney. There are hundreds of thousands of American organ recipients just like him. And cancer patients. And HIV+ folks. Etc. He got the newly approved 3rd dose within 24hrs of it being approved. We're hoping he has some antibody response to it. I understand the death shaming, at least when it comes to people who were actively spreading misinformation. As an example, the conservative radio host who dubbed himself "Mr AntiVax" who just died of Covid-19. The ones grifting off human suffering. It's a place for your anger at the unvaccinated to go.

41 points by hncurious 5y ago

They should be shamed. It would be fine if they didn't take the vaccine and stayed home but they don't do that. They go to the hospital and take up valuable bed space that I would argue thy don't deserve. I realistically don't know how much the intent is to persuade people to get the vaccine. As they point out, it wouldn't be a good strategy, but at this point, not much is going to change a person's mind over it anyway.

eventreduce 5y ago
Most people do not "deserve" bed space because most sickness is selfmade. People smoke, drink and eat too much, so they all deserve to die?
- ehPReth 5y ago
  I do at least! But.. no one will kill me :(
  - Ternari 5y ago
    Let me know if you need someone to talk with. Contact info is in profile
- lotsofpulp 5y ago
  The context is different when there are issues with hospital capacity and there is a known solution that costs nothing to prevent hospitals’ from being overburdened.
  - bazooka_penguin 5y ago
    The context is the same in regards to the self afflicted conditions he mentioned
    - jimbob45 5y ago
      Quitting smoking and losing weight are incredibly difficult and take years. Getting a jab takes five minutes and no effort whatsoever. You even get paid to do it at some places.
    - lotsofpulp 5y ago
      The context is not the same since those conditions are not causing hospitals to surpass capacity in the short term.
- dundarious 5y ago
  Habitual lifestyle factors are not the same as the exogenous novel coronavirus.
  - sattoshi 5y ago
    There is nothing habitual about stuffing food down your throat to the point of obesity.
    - dundarious 5y ago
      I’m not going to quote the dictionary for you, but that’s indisputably false.
- Legion 5y ago
  You overeating doesn't give everyone else around you diabetes. I'm never going to buy the attempts to equate getting a personal preventable illness with willful and malicious disregard of the health of everyone surrounding you. We're pretty understanding of a person who struggles with alcoholism. We're a whole lot less understanding when they choose to get behind the wheel.
  - kmonsen 5y ago
    Riding a motorbike? Does nothing for anyone that cannot be done in a safer way but kills people and sometimes others. Drinking alcohol? I think making fun of someone dying is way too harsh. All that being said I think vaccine certificates should be introduced with some ways of testing out for people that cannot take the vaccine.
    - jzoch 5y ago
      Its culturally acceptable to shame drunk drivers, smokers (in public spaces), and more. Im not necessarily agreeing we should but it certainly follows that shaming people for endangering others re: vaccines is in line with modern cultural norms.
  - marcusverus 5y ago
    > You overeating doesn't give everyone else around you diabetes. This seems like a deflection. Given GP's argument, a better question would be are obese people more likely to spread COVID than non-obese people? Well, we know someone who has contracted COVID can expect worse outcomes if they're obese. Given that, it seems safe to assume that obese people are more likely to get breakthrough infections and/or that they have slower recoveries (i.e. more coughing/sneezing and more spreading COVID) than non-obese people. So it seems reasonable (in a back-of-the-envelope sort of way) to infer that obese folks are more likely to spread COVID than non-obese folks. Now, back to GP's argument--If we're suggesting that non-vaccinated people are less deserving of healthcare than vaccinated people because they're contributing the the spread of COVID, why wouldn't we treat obese folks the same?
  - refurb 5y ago
- emilsedgh 5y ago
  In smoking, drinking, eating too much, there are pleasures. Thus, making it difficult for people to stop. Stopping them requires fighting real urges. That's why they deserve sympathy. In not getting vaccinated there's no pleasure. Only stupidity and ignorance.
  - mioasndo 5y ago
    I'm not sure what your argument is? That pleasure is what determines if something is ok to do? People have reasons for not taking a vaccine the same way people have reasons for drinking. They have their own reasons, it is their choice.
    - emilsedgh 5y ago
      Comment above me claimed we should have sympathy for unvvacinated people [that have access to vaccine] who die, just like we do sympathize with people who die due to smoking, drinking, etc. I argued that being vaccinated is not comparable to those, because unlike them, your body doesn't have any urge to not vaccinated. It's very easy to get vaccinated. It's just a stupid decision.
      - mioasndo 5y ago
        Not getting vaccinated is a stupid decision, but smoking is not? Or you think people are spontaneously addicted to smoking, drinking, drugs? Or you think that people randomly decide to not get the vaccine because they just wake up stupid one day? Guess what, in a free society people can choose what they put in their bodies, regardless of how much pleasure you think they get from it, or how stupid you think it is.
- kmonsen 5y ago
  Totalt agree, I personally took up valuable hospital space after a biking accident. I feel not taking the vaccine is a bit different but cannot really express this in an objective way so I guess it is not.
usefulcat 5y ago
> They should be shamed. On an emotional level, I can't help but agree. But.. frequently we have to choose between doing what feels good and doing what is effective. Assuming, of course, that we even notice when there is a difference between the two (which, frankly, there very often is).

magwa101 5y ago

We get really upset about drunk driving. Smoking indoors and in particular around kids. We're going to get similarly mad unvaccinated people taking others down with their Darwin Awards.

wycy 5y ago
The worst part is most of the people covid takes down have already reproduced, disqualifying them from Darwin Awards.

okdjnfweonfe 5y ago

finishing it with the anecdote of "so I tried my new fangled plan of convincing a person, and then they still wern't convinced" somewhat nullifies the author's entire point

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

savanaly 5y ago

I'm always aghast when I go on social media or Reddit and see all the things people say about the unvaccinated dead. I can scarcely believe that the folks that post those things are nominally on the same side as me on most issues of substance. I get past it by telling myself that there are always tons of bots and shills in the pay of all manner of nation states and organizations trolling those exact places posting whatever will ferment polarization.

ogogmad 5y ago
The "Darwin Awards" once had an unnerving degree of pop culture acceptance. [edit] They might still.
- InvaderFizz 5y ago
  IIRC, Darwin Awards were always targeted at singular instances of actions that could be charitably described as unwise. What is happening today is just the use of anything for the advancement of tribal signaling and catharsis derived from the suffering of the "other." It exists on every side, acceptability of these behaviors depends largely on in-group vs out-group status of the perpetrator.
  - ogogmad 5y ago
    I might be sentimental in thinking that you shouldn't kick someone when they're down. Dying for your mistakes is one way to be "down", and mocking someone is a great way of "kicking" them. Goes beyond tribalism.
  - ogogmad 5y ago
    On the subject of Darwin Awards, that website didn't have a very good rationalisation for celebrating those people's deaths, except for some social Darwinian bullshit. At least here, they sort of seem to have one.
taeric 5y ago
The bots and shills angle is about all I have to hold onto sanity right now. Would be great to know the actual numbers. Or terrifying.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

whatgoodisaroad 5y ago

Does this writer genuinely think they are the first to think of convincing people to get vaccinated? And all we needed was a little facts and logic?

otterley 5y ago

Stop telling people to stop doing things. It's very rude. Explain to us why the behavior is bad, instead.

loeg 5y ago
> Stop telling people to stop doing things. It's very rude. > Explain to us why the behavior is bad, instead. The words after the headline (attempt to) do that.
mcguire 5y ago
Because when you are a jackass and everyone applauds you, you are still a jackass.
bartread 5y ago
I'd also add to this, get to the point quicker. I got really bored with this article about three paragraphs in. You want to persuade me? Start by not wasting my attention. I'm sick and tired of people telling me what to do under virtually all everyday circumstances, and especially so when the rationale is faulty (or at least up for debate). It gets even more wearing when they take a long time about it or use an unnecessarily large quantity of words.
flaque 5y ago
If you shame people, they dig in their heels. If you care about stopping the pandemic, you need to create an environment in which someone can safely stop believing their falsehoods. You actually have to convince people, regardless of whether or not they deserve your effort in convincing them.
- falcolas 5y ago
  Human history, and studies of human behavior, show that “convincing” people with logic and facts largely doesn’t work. Their worldview needs to change. And little changes worldviews better than a personal existential threat. Like death.

tomohawk 5y ago

It's amazing how years of anti-vax nonsense went nowhere. But, in a few months, all of this shaming and politicizing have done so much damage. Public health rests on trust, not mocking, not shaming, not coercion.

minitech 5y ago
> It's amazing how years of anti-vax nonsense went nowhere. “Nowhere”? It’s gotten so bad that there are measles outbreaks now.
actually_a_dog 5y ago
Who's being coerced? People have the free choice to take or not take the vaccine. Both decisions have consequences. That is it. No coercion is involved.
- HKH2 5y ago
  Maybe there's no coercion where you live, but where I live some people who are unvaccinated get a fine in a form of a forced test every two weeks that they have to pay for, no matter how risk-averse they are. A vaccinated socialite is far more of a problem than an unvaccinated loner.
  - actually_a_dog 5y ago
    Those are called "consequences." You make your choice, you are responsible for it, both the unvaccinated and the "vaccinated socialite" you want to demonize. Do you think you, or the "vaccinated socialite" should be able to opt out of your responsibility to participate in a common sense public health measure without consequences?
    - HKH2 5y ago
      I wasn't demonizing anyone. Vaccination is simply not as effective as people would have you believe.

crazy_horse 5y ago

Reddit has a subreddit dedicated to this. I understand the justifications and the frustration, but so much of that is people being hateful. I've seen everything from race, hair style, weight, religion, etc mocked because the people deserve it. I think it's the most toxic part of humanity. I hope reddit closes hateful subs like this. Here is a similar article about that sub. https://melmagazine.com/en-us/story/herman-cain-awards https://melmagazine.com/en-us/story/herman-cain-awards

beaconstudios 5y ago
not surprising to be honest, reddit is a pretty vitriolic place.
- WalterSear 5y ago
  IMHO, this place is more toxic. Sure, there is a much stronger social policing of personal attacks and sophomoric comments, but within those bounds, some people appear to feel freer to make genuinely cutting comments and express vitriolic opinions.
  - beaconstudios 5y ago
    they're the same place (literally, same demographics and that), HN just pushes people to be passive-aggressive instead of regular aggressive because of the rules on tone, even though the spirit of the rules is to be inquisitive rather than abrasive.
    - WalterSear 5y ago
      I disagree. 14% of the US use reddit++. It's possible, and IMHO, likely that most HN users are reddit users. It's definitely not the case that most reddit users are HN users. t In my utterly subjective opinion, the users of HN are generally older, and almost certainly more STEM oriented than their reddit counterparts. Both their age and their experience might explain why they are more skilled at eviscerating a commenter while staying within the letter of HN social norms and moderation. Moreover, and I reiterate, IMHSO, the more toxic users on HN tend to be primarily reactionary in political persuasion, whereas, reddit has a much more wider political varieties of jackass. Perhaps this is a result of there not being subHN forums to where people would self-segregate. ++ https://www.oberlo.com/blog/reddit-statistics https://www.oberlo.com/blog/reddit-statistics

jerkstate 5y ago

I don’t think the unvaccinated mind the shaming as much as the threats - to be denied health care, sent to camps, fired from their jobs, forbidden to buy food, forbidden freedom of movement, etc. those things matter a lot more than “shaming”

flaque 5y ago

It’s worth noting that, even if you think shaming encourages people to get vaccinated, these stories are still bad because they are almost never seen by the people who you’re trying to shame. Unvaccinated people don’t like and share stories about unvaccinated people having a tube shoved down their throat and then dying alone in a hospital. The more outrageous the irony, the less it actually appeals to someone who hasn’t gotten the vaccine yet. Similarly, many of these stories focus heavily on the most crazy, most irrational reasons to not get the vaccine. Most folks who don’t get the vaccine are coming from very understandable places. - They may believe that they already got COVID and think that, because they already got it, then they’re “immune” (which is wrong, but reasonable to assume) - They have heard people they consider smart and reputable, like Eric Weinstein, claim misleading or false statistics about deaths from the vaccine. (Again, wrong, but understandable) - they may still think that the vaccine is “not FDA approved”, due to poor messaging from the FDA. (It is approved by the way, not just emergency authorization) - they may not have time to go get a vaccine. Not everyone can take time off work - they may be afraid of needles, or the side effects, and are unwilling to admit it. I was afraid of the side effects before getting my vaccine (though it turned out fine) All of these are irrational reasons, since COVID is super contagious, absolutely awful to get, and puts many people, even those who survive, alone in the hospital with a tube shoved down their throat. But they’re reasonable fears; understandable fears. And shaming people for entirely reasonable fears does not get more people vaccinated. A lot of people seem to care more about their anger towards unvaccinated people, and their desire to shame them, than actually stopping the pandemic by taking strategies that would actually get them vaccinated.

SquishyPanda23 5y ago
None of the reasons you listed are reasonable reasons for people to not get vaccinated.
- flaque 5y ago
  Correct, they’re not reasonable reasons to not get vaccinated. But they are reasonable fears to have. They’re normal fears, that make sense from their point of view. They’re factually wrong, but understandable.

yongjik 5y ago

IMHO, the most surprising (and disturbing) thing about people refusing the vaccine, catching COVID, and dying is that there are so many of them. Enough for the media to talk about a random new dead person every day. Enough to sustain a shitty subreddit. In a country where vaccination is free. I agree that mocking them isn't productive, but at this stage, it feels more like a coping mechanism. When the world around you stops making sense, what are you going to do, other than laugh?

deleted 5y ago
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siod 5y ago

People are angry. They see vaccine refusers as prolonging the pandemic and putting their loved ones/everyone at risk for nothing.

_3u10 5y ago
Given that it spreads faster amongst the unvaccinated it’s the vaccines that are prolonging it. The entire flatten the curve narrative is about making it last as long as possible. With deltas R value of 5 to 8 it could be over by Christmas even with vaccines and masks.
- Smoosh 5y ago
  > entire flatten the curve narrative is about I thought it was about reducing total deaths by not overloading health care services.
  - _3u10 5y ago
    Given the capacity of hospitals to treat everyone, assuming we can max them out, it takes about 40 years til everyone has it, assuming in those 40 years, there are no additional births.
- _rpd 5y ago
  "Flattening the curve" is about not overwhleming hospital resources, to avoid non-COVID avoidable deaths spiking.
ipaddr 5y ago
They have fallen upto a media trap setup to push blame while ignoring everything else. You hear the same in places where 90% have gotten two shots. The vaccines don't work so well. If you want to reduce the curve you need to go out 70% less. No one wants to share that getting a vaccine was never enough. We were told just get a shot and it will kill covid you can go back to normal living. The vaccines are not that good.

deleted 5y ago

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cercatrova 5y ago

It is not my problem if people who are unvaccinated would rather inject horse deworming paste than take a vaccine. They suffer the consequences of their actions and they Darwin themselves out of existence. I feel no sympathy for these people. In fact, I feel less than zero sympathy, because they take up space in hospitals for people that do truly need it, such as children, immunocompromised, or those otherwise unable to take the vaccine. So, I will shame away. For those saying that many of these people come from an understandable place, I cannot agree. If you read the posts on r/HermanCainAward, most of the people shown are openly mocking the vaccine, that it's a "liberal creation" and it is implied that they are not taking it merely due to it being pushed by the government, that they do not want their "freedoms" (to die or take medicine for animals, I presume) being "infringed."

SquishyPanda23 5y ago

Unvaccinated people are basically drunk drivers who won't shut up about their right to drive drunk. Mocking their deaths won't convince them to become reasonable, but you can't blame people for feeling schadenfreude.

beervirus 5y ago

> Mocking the unvaccinated dead does not save lives. Sometimes it does. I personally know one person who finally got vaccinated exactly because of these stories—and because of the mockery.

devwastaken 5y ago

We also have to stop shaming information, and the people who want to discuss it. In many places, especially on the net, You have to say "the vaccine is completely safe all the time", not "the vaccine is overwhelmingly safe and effective, some may be at risk of life threatening blood clots, and vaccination does not entirely prevent infection, nor does it guarantee significant protection from future mutations which are expected to continue". You especially cannot talk about CDC data, you can't compare death/injury of other things, and you can't talk about the 1920's influenza outbreak that killed half a million people. If you try to talk about those things, you're shamed as a crazy anti-vaxxer whom is going to kill everyone. Even if you've been vaccinated and follow CDC guidelines. That's how new anti-vaxxers are being made. Otherwise reasonable people are being told they're crazy anti-vaxxers for simply talking about facts, asking important questions, pointing out inconvenient data. The actual experts whom can talk about such things are being drowned out by the flood of reactionaries.

rex-mundi 5y ago
And all the down votes prove you right! It would be nice if people could talk about this situation in measured calm ways and actually treat reasonable statements as such

gmuslera 5y ago

If they are dead you are not talking to them. You are talking with the people that did the same as them, and are still alive (and with a bit of luck, that didn't got the disease yet). And besides personal freedom, in a society you are free to do what affects only you, your freedom should stop where the rights of the rest of the people begins. Should you shame or condemn someone that choose to drive drunk and kills a couple of elderly people in the road? That is what they are doing.

dundarious 5y ago

Ironic reversals are funny. e.g., Looney Tunes. Comparisons with other kinds of deaths that have an ironic reversal component are often comparing far milder scenarios. For the vaccines scenario, to use a phrase from the Monster Factory video series, there are “no middle sliders”. It’s a free option to not die. If your cultural/political milieu or personal philosophy leads you to not take that free option, it’s at least a little bit funny. If you are a leader or evangelist within that milieu, I think it definitely crosses the line into acceptably openly funny. Please note that this obviously doesn’t mean I condone every action by people who also think it’s funny. For private persons, a basic attempt to anonymize and unlink humorous comments from the person and their family seems like a reasonably conscientious thing to do, and makes it fine by me.

drcongo 5y ago
There's a reason that "List of inventors killed by their own inventions" is such a popular page on Wikipedia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_inventors_killed_by_their_own_inventions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_inventors_killed_by_th...

totetsu 5y ago

As soon as laugh at someone's death, and make judgements on if they deserved it or not, we devalue Human life. That can't be a net positive. No matter what we think of their behavior. .. once your laughing at death, where is the philosophical barrier between that and seeing disabled people as useless eaters? The reason people are dieing is at least partially because of complete lack of leaders action to fund pandemic prevention efforts in the past years despite clear evidence and warnings of the need to do so. If a kid drowns in a pool where there are no fencing laws, well sure dumb kid, but also..

Gibbon1 5y ago
I've been saving my ire for business, media, and political leaders pushing denialism for ideological and crass personal/political reasons. The hapless people that believed them and died as a result are their victims. The doctors and nurse that had to deal with that are victims as are the family left behind. On the other hand you have a huge contingent of people in the US who pride themselves on being basically ungovernable. I'll point out countries that were successful dealing with covid are either authoritarian. Or have populations that are governable.
- totetsu 5y ago
  Even the old hat anarchists of NZ are all for lockdowns and vacation. That being said I know a few people who probably hid their automatic weapons rather than hand them in when they got banned.. maybe theres a difference between politically idealistic anarchists and phycologically motivated egoists.
- me_me_me 5y ago
  > The hapless people that believed them and died as a result are their victims. At what point you are gullible person, and when do you turn into willing culprit? > The doctors and nurse that had to deal with that are victims as are the family left behind. Now they are the real victims and heroes, risking death for someone who willingly put themselves in danger due to their views. Also laughing at people who died is pointless, they are dead and they don't care for mockery. But I sure target the griefing families that might or might not had hand in antivax movement.

JohnTHaller 5y ago

I don't know anyone personally who has been able to convince an anti-vaxxer/vaccine hesitant person to get vaccinated. My friend's unvaccinated sibling died of Covid-19 a few days ago. Sibling wasn't high risk or older. They had argued about it last month. Sibling was consuming conservative media and surrounded by similar folks. The vaccine didn't work on my Dad. He's on immunosupressive meds so he doesn't reject my kidney. There are hundreds of thousands of American organ recipients just like him. And cancer patients. And HIV+ folks. Etc. He got the newly approved 3rd dose within 24hrs of it being approved. We're hoping he has some antibody response to it. I understand the death shaming, at least when it comes to people who were actively spreading misinformation. As an example, the conservative radio host who dubbed himself "Mr AntiVax" who just died of Covid-19. The ones grifting off human suffering. It's a place for your anger at the unvaccinated to go.