5 ms·

I actually think we have the same problem, to a much lower degree, in the US. Clearly software engineers do get paid extremely well at top companies, and are pa

by geebee 5y ago

I actually think we have the same problem, to a much lower degree, in the US. Clearly software engineers do get paid extremely well at top companies, and are paid reasonably at lower tiers. But in San Francisco and Silicon Valley, software engineers on average are only paid a little more than registered nurses and dental hygienists. Software Engineers: ~145k Registered Nurses: ~140k (note these are for SF and San Jose, not overall - the source for all this is at US News Best jobs which relies on labor dept data: https://money.usnews.com/careers/best-jobs https://money.usnews.com/careers/best-jobs). I've left a version of this comment a bunch of times on HN over the years, but I'll add the usual provisos - I don't object to nurses making lots of money, or more than software engineers for that matter, but I will point out that SEs overall really aren't remarkably well paid compared to other educated professionals. And while SEs at the top make well above the median, so do many nurses in specialties that require a MS or higher. I'm just not convinced that women would be well served by leaving nursing, law, finance, or medicine to go into tech. I don't mean this in a work-life balance "do you really want this" way. I mean, if women want to build substantial independent wealth, power, and influence, they may be well served by avoiding tech careers (or, if they work in tech, avoiding SE roles). Honestly, this is pretty much the same advice I'd give men. I'm hesitant to discourage anyone from tech or SE roles, since clearly people do have great careers in them, and it's the right choice for some people. What I resist is the notion that people should be choosing it more often than they do, when in fact, I think the low to medium level of interest in SE careers is probably the product outcome of smart people weighing the demands and rewards of a career relative to their personal professional and life interests. I consider it very rational that US citizens with choice generally choose not to become developers in the valley in the numbers that Silicon Valley execs think they should. It's not a huge coincidence that the people who staff these positions disproportionately work on visas that limit their range of free choice in career path.

gowld 5y ago
Is that Software Engineer salary accurate(despite being far lower than what all the household names pay), or is it excluding bonus and/or equity grants?
- panda88888 5y ago
  The number looks like base pay to me.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- junar 5y ago
  It's base pay, more or less. > How are "wages" defined by the OEWS survey? > The following are excluded from the collection of OEWS wage data: > Non-production bonuses > Stock bonuses > Year-end bonuses https://www.bls.gov/oes/oes_ques.htm https://www.bls.gov/oes/oes_ques.htm
  - kapp_in_life 5y ago
    It looks like overtime pay and "weekend premium"(I'm guessing this might include third shift pay?) is also excluded from the number which would also paint a different picture for nurses if included.
  - geebee 5y ago
    Thanks for the link. This is an important part of this discussion, and something I don't understand well. If I'm going to compare compensation in different fields, it's important to know how variable compensation, like stock options or overtime, figures in. This is especially important in software vs nursing, since variable pay makes up a big part of software but overtime is rare, whereas overtime figures heavily into nursing but stock options are unusual. Note that according to the BLS link you provided, overtime is also excluded. My company stock has never been worth a dime - I worked for Sun Microsystems before it crashed, and later for a startup that went kaput. This is all a combination of timing, luck, choices, the ability (or lack thereof) to pick a winner. Clearly variable pay is worth a lot at google, facebook, and many early startups, but my story is absolutely not unusual - and on the other side of the coin, I can assure you that nurses do get a tremendous amount of value out of overtime. Furthermore, overtime pay is predictable: you work more hours, you get 1.5-2x more money. But this pay is also excluded from the comparison I made above. Without these considerations, the data is of limited value. FWIW, I have always been a little suspicious of how low the software engineer pay is on these surveys. Overall, though, I think that in spite of the noise, the general principle does hold, that pay and benefits are good enough in other fields available that there's no reason to be puzzled about the low to medium interest level in being a developer in Silicon Valley, that this all explained as rational behavior in labor markets among hard working, academically inclined people.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
yumraj 5y ago
I agree with the general premise of your comment. In addition software engineering suffers from the worst ageism of any career which basically means that around mid to late 30s one starts to run into issues. Now contrast that with many other careers where one’s value invariably increases as one gains experience. Given that, my general advice is even if you start with software engineering, transition out to other roles very quickly unless you’re in the top 1%, can be a founder or truly love software engineering.
- geebee 5y ago
  I think you're onto something there. Starting out in software engineering can be a great way to enter the workforce, mainly because it allows you to join a team in a very high-value role. If you avoid jobs where you're a cog, and instead find a role where you help build a product with a team, you'll learn a lot - and again, because you can create the software, you'll have a pretty central role. There are plenty of good places to go from there. The downside to this attrition is that software engineering (or development if you'd prefer to avoid a charged term) really does need experienced people who understand the long term impact of design, technical debt, what to pursue and what to abandon, mentor and develop new talent, and so forth.
Saptarishi 5y ago
To be honest, considering currency exchange rates, 140k for a nurse is a GINORMOUS salary in atleast 80% of countries other than the USA. I have tremendous respect for medical professionals , but surely , a nursing degree is easier to obtain than one in IT ?
- geebee 5y ago
  Hmmm. I wouldn’t say surely, but I don’t really know. IT can range from immensely difficult math heavy curricula to watered down technical training. And my understanding is that rigorous nursing does require a lot of science (though I Don’t think it generally requires calculus, let alone advanced math or engineering). As a job it’s pretty tough. Anyway it’s always important to me when making this argument to point out that I consider nursing to be a job worthy of good salaries. I bring it up only to refute the notion that Software developers clearly outearn comparable educated professionals.
hakfoo 5y ago
I suspect the standard deviation is more interesting than the mean or median. I suspect "software engineer" encompasses people getting 400k at a FAANG and people earning 60k at an outsourcing consultancy or small product shop in a low cost-of-living area. I'd be surprised if the spread for a RN is as broad.
- geebee 5y ago
  No... not the salary range for nursing isn't quite that broad, but it is very broad. Consider the salary for a nurse anesthetist in a high cost urban center, vs a registered nurse or nurse orderly in a low income rural area. The median salary for a nurse anesthetist in San Francisco is around $250k a year (and $285k a year in Akron OH)[1] - keep in mind, that's the median, not the top 10th or 25th percentile. Meanwhile, The median salary for a registered nurse nationally is $73k a year, and the 25%ile is $63k a year[2] [1] https://money.usnews.com/careers/best-jobs/nurse-anesthetist/salary https://money.usnews.com/careers/best-jobs/nurse-anesthetist... [2] https://money.usnews.com/careers/best-jobs/registered-nurse/salary https://money.usnews.com/careers/best-jobs/registered-nurse/... Also - remember (per the discussion above) that the 400k software engineer pay you mentioned almost certainly includes stock (which is not included in these numbers), but the pay for nurses doesn't include overtime. Try using the Transparent California calculator to see some of the higher end total compensation for nurses. https://transparentcalifornia.com/salaries/search/?q=nurse&y= https://transparentcalifornia.com/salaries/search/?q=nurse&y...
the_only_law 5y ago
> software engineers on average are only paid a little more than registered nurses and dental hygienists. Software Engineers: ~145k Registered Nurses: ~140k Don’t recall if they were in the Bay Area or not, but I know someone out in California who is a nurse and wants out because the shear amount of hours they make you work. I suppose many Bay Area engineers may work a lot of extra hours as well, but my understanding was that nursing pay looks much less appealing when you’re working double the standard work week.

by geebee 5y ago

gowld 5y ago

Is that Software Engineer salary accurate(despite being far lower than what all the household names pay), or is it excluding bonus and/or equity grants?

panda88888 5y ago
The number looks like base pay to me.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
junar 5y ago
It's base pay, more or less. > How are "wages" defined by the OEWS survey? > The following are excluded from the collection of OEWS wage data: > Non-production bonuses > Stock bonuses > Year-end bonuses https://www.bls.gov/oes/oes_ques.htm https://www.bls.gov/oes/oes_ques.htm
- kapp_in_life 5y ago
  It looks like overtime pay and "weekend premium"(I'm guessing this might include third shift pay?) is also excluded from the number which would also paint a different picture for nurses if included.
- geebee 5y ago
  Thanks for the link. This is an important part of this discussion, and something I don't understand well. If I'm going to compare compensation in different fields, it's important to know how variable compensation, like stock options or overtime, figures in. This is especially important in software vs nursing, since variable pay makes up a big part of software but overtime is rare, whereas overtime figures heavily into nursing but stock options are unusual. Note that according to the BLS link you provided, overtime is also excluded. My company stock has never been worth a dime - I worked for Sun Microsystems before it crashed, and later for a startup that went kaput. This is all a combination of timing, luck, choices, the ability (or lack thereof) to pick a winner. Clearly variable pay is worth a lot at google, facebook, and many early startups, but my story is absolutely not unusual - and on the other side of the coin, I can assure you that nurses do get a tremendous amount of value out of overtime. Furthermore, overtime pay is predictable: you work more hours, you get 1.5-2x more money. But this pay is also excluded from the comparison I made above. Without these considerations, the data is of limited value. FWIW, I have always been a little suspicious of how low the software engineer pay is on these surveys. Overall, though, I think that in spite of the noise, the general principle does hold, that pay and benefits are good enough in other fields available that there's no reason to be puzzled about the low to medium interest level in being a developer in Silicon Valley, that this all explained as rational behavior in labor markets among hard working, academically inclined people.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

yumraj 5y ago

I agree with the general premise of your comment. In addition software engineering suffers from the worst ageism of any career which basically means that around mid to late 30s one starts to run into issues. Now contrast that with many other careers where one’s value invariably increases as one gains experience. Given that, my general advice is even if you start with software engineering, transition out to other roles very quickly unless you’re in the top 1%, can be a founder or truly love software engineering.

geebee 5y ago
I think you're onto something there. Starting out in software engineering can be a great way to enter the workforce, mainly because it allows you to join a team in a very high-value role. If you avoid jobs where you're a cog, and instead find a role where you help build a product with a team, you'll learn a lot - and again, because you can create the software, you'll have a pretty central role. There are plenty of good places to go from there. The downside to this attrition is that software engineering (or development if you'd prefer to avoid a charged term) really does need experienced people who understand the long term impact of design, technical debt, what to pursue and what to abandon, mentor and develop new talent, and so forth.

Saptarishi 5y ago

To be honest, considering currency exchange rates, 140k for a nurse is a GINORMOUS salary in atleast 80% of countries other than the USA. I have tremendous respect for medical professionals , but surely , a nursing degree is easier to obtain than one in IT ?

geebee 5y ago
Hmmm. I wouldn’t say surely, but I don’t really know. IT can range from immensely difficult math heavy curricula to watered down technical training. And my understanding is that rigorous nursing does require a lot of science (though I Don’t think it generally requires calculus, let alone advanced math or engineering). As a job it’s pretty tough. Anyway it’s always important to me when making this argument to point out that I consider nursing to be a job worthy of good salaries. I bring it up only to refute the notion that Software developers clearly outearn comparable educated professionals.

hakfoo 5y ago

I suspect the standard deviation is more interesting than the mean or median. I suspect "software engineer" encompasses people getting 400k at a FAANG and people earning 60k at an outsourcing consultancy or small product shop in a low cost-of-living area. I'd be surprised if the spread for a RN is as broad.

geebee 5y ago
No... not the salary range for nursing isn't quite that broad, but it is very broad. Consider the salary for a nurse anesthetist in a high cost urban center, vs a registered nurse or nurse orderly in a low income rural area. The median salary for a nurse anesthetist in San Francisco is around $250k a year (and $285k a year in Akron OH)[1] - keep in mind, that's the median, not the top 10th or 25th percentile. Meanwhile, The median salary for a registered nurse nationally is $73k a year, and the 25%ile is $63k a year[2] [1] https://money.usnews.com/careers/best-jobs/nurse-anesthetist/salary https://money.usnews.com/careers/best-jobs/nurse-anesthetist... [2] https://money.usnews.com/careers/best-jobs/registered-nurse/salary https://money.usnews.com/careers/best-jobs/registered-nurse/... Also - remember (per the discussion above) that the 400k software engineer pay you mentioned almost certainly includes stock (which is not included in these numbers), but the pay for nurses doesn't include overtime. Try using the Transparent California calculator to see some of the higher end total compensation for nurses. https://transparentcalifornia.com/salaries/search/?q=nurse&y= https://transparentcalifornia.com/salaries/search/?q=nurse&y...

the_only_law 5y ago

> software engineers on average are only paid a little more than registered nurses and dental hygienists. Software Engineers: ~145k Registered Nurses: ~140k Don’t recall if they were in the Bay Area or not, but I know someone out in California who is a nurse and wants out because the shear amount of hours they make you work. I suppose many Bay Area engineers may work a lot of extra hours as well, but my understanding was that nursing pay looks much less appealing when you’re working double the standard work week.