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I'm just not sure these people are understanding the problem the right way round. Salaries and prestige are relatively low for developers in Japan, so it's rela

I'm just not sure these people are understanding the problem the right way round. Salaries and prestige are relatively low for developers in Japan, so it's relatively easy for other jobs to compete for prospective workers and draw them away from technology. That will be true even if more women are interested in the field than formerly. In fact, convincing many women to commit to the field early in their educations for reasons of representation, rather than because the economics are compelling to them, would only make the situation worse: relatively more workers competing for jobs with salaries that are already low. Japanese enterprises do not value software engineering talent and there are probably some underlying fundamentals behind that -- in workplaces with relatively low independence, it's hard to leverage engineering talent for much -- which, left unchanged, will make initiatives like this into a game of musical chairs.

junar 5y ago
You sure about that? I came across two different surveys of Japanese workers that suggest women in tech are paid relatively well compared to women in other industries. [1] https://kimi.wiki/work/income https://kimi.wiki/work/income ("IT, Communications") [2] https://www.tsunagulocal.com/en/42243/ https://www.tsunagulocal.com/en/42243/ ("Informations services")
- ejvincent 5y ago
  You are looking at this differently than the parent post. You are looking at cross-industry inside Japan. Parent is talking about inside Japan vs outside Japan within the same industry/job. If you look at public data on somewhere like levels.fyi, there's a big gap in pay even within the same company, at the same level. I'm most familiar with Seattle comp, and same tier of SDE role is a 30+% paycut from Seattle to Tokyo at FAANG companies. I also know someone who left a FAANG company here to go work in Japan for awhile. They had to move from SDE to Data Scientist + got a senior role at the new company, and even then they struggled to get anywhere close to their previous comp.
  - junar 5y ago
    I don't see that. I believe parent comment is also talking about "cross-industry inside Japan". > Salaries and prestige are relatively low for *developers in Japan*, so it's relatively easy for other jobs to compete for prospective workers and *draw them away from technology*. I agree that difficulty attracting foreign talent is a problem for the Japanese tech industry, but I don't think it's the focus of the article or the focus of the parent comment.
- solidsnack9000 5y ago
  The last source actually presents a table which shows "Education" is the best paying field for women, whereas "Finance/Insurance" is the best paying field for men; and "Information services" is not the best paying field for either sex, although it is near the top. In the USA, in contrast, "Education" is definitely not competitive with tech as far as salaries. These are not the kind of sources I would use to study these things, by the way, because they break things down by industry or profession rather than role and these sources use incredibly broad "industry" and "profession" categories.
  - junar 5y ago
    If you know of better sources, I'd love to take a look. I can read Japanese, but I'm way better at searching stuff up in English.
Cookingboy 5y ago
>Salaries and prestige are relatively low for developers in Japan Yeah, I was pretty surprised to hear that a Senior Engineering Manager at Rakuten, the "Japanese Amazon" and one of their top software companies, only has the TC of somewhere around $100k USD. And the position was in Tokyo, not exactly a cheap place. Many senior engineers at "top tier" domestic software companies get paid somewhere around $70-$90k, which is pathetic for even LCOL areas in the U.S.
geebee 5y ago
I actually think we have the same problem, to a much lower degree, in the US. Clearly software engineers do get paid extremely well at top companies, and are paid reasonably at lower tiers. But in San Francisco and Silicon Valley, software engineers on average are only paid a little more than registered nurses and dental hygienists. Software Engineers: ~145k Registered Nurses: ~140k (note these are for SF and San Jose, not overall - the source for all this is at US News Best jobs which relies on labor dept data: https://money.usnews.com/careers/best-jobs https://money.usnews.com/careers/best-jobs). I've left a version of this comment a bunch of times on HN over the years, but I'll add the usual provisos - I don't object to nurses making lots of money, or more than software engineers for that matter, but I will point out that SEs overall really aren't remarkably well paid compared to other educated professionals. And while SEs at the top make well above the median, so do many nurses in specialties that require a MS or higher. I'm just not convinced that women would be well served by leaving nursing, law, finance, or medicine to go into tech. I don't mean this in a work-life balance "do you really want this" way. I mean, if women want to build substantial independent wealth, power, and influence, they may be well served by avoiding tech careers (or, if they work in tech, avoiding SE roles). Honestly, this is pretty much the same advice I'd give men. I'm hesitant to discourage anyone from tech or SE roles, since clearly people do have great careers in them, and it's the right choice for some people. What I resist is the notion that people should be choosing it more often than they do, when in fact, I think the low to medium level of interest in SE careers is probably the product outcome of smart people weighing the demands and rewards of a career relative to their personal professional and life interests. I consider it very rational that US citizens with choice generally choose not to become developers in the valley in the numbers that Silicon Valley execs think they should. It's not a huge coincidence that the people who staff these positions disproportionately work on visas that limit their range of free choice in career path.
- gowld 5y ago
  Is that Software Engineer salary accurate(despite being far lower than what all the household names pay), or is it excluding bonus and/or equity grants?
  - 5y ago
makeitdouble 5y ago
> Salaries and prestige are relatively low for developers in Japan, so it's relatively easy for other jobs to compete for prospective workers and draw them away from technology. Another aspect to this is that IT is one of the few fields where there is a low tradition lock. Getting into the more prestigious and high paying areas can require either a better diploma, stronger adhesion to stereotypical profiles, or working way longer inside to climb the ranks. In comparison IT companies will be more focused on competence, accept lower social status in exchange for performance. I think this is true in other countries as well, but Japan looks to me like a poster child for this bias.

junar 5y ago

You sure about that? I came across two different surveys of Japanese workers that suggest women in tech are paid relatively well compared to women in other industries. [1] https://kimi.wiki/work/income https://kimi.wiki/work/income ("IT, Communications") [2] https://www.tsunagulocal.com/en/42243/ https://www.tsunagulocal.com/en/42243/ ("Informations services")

ejvincent 5y ago
You are looking at this differently than the parent post. You are looking at cross-industry inside Japan. Parent is talking about inside Japan vs outside Japan within the same industry/job. If you look at public data on somewhere like levels.fyi, there's a big gap in pay even within the same company, at the same level. I'm most familiar with Seattle comp, and same tier of SDE role is a 30+% paycut from Seattle to Tokyo at FAANG companies. I also know someone who left a FAANG company here to go work in Japan for awhile. They had to move from SDE to Data Scientist + got a senior role at the new company, and even then they struggled to get anywhere close to their previous comp.
- junar 5y ago
  I don't see that. I believe parent comment is also talking about "cross-industry inside Japan". > Salaries and prestige are relatively low for *developers in Japan*, so it's relatively easy for other jobs to compete for prospective workers and *draw them away from technology*. I agree that difficulty attracting foreign talent is a problem for the Japanese tech industry, but I don't think it's the focus of the article or the focus of the parent comment.
solidsnack9000 5y ago
The last source actually presents a table which shows "Education" is the best paying field for women, whereas "Finance/Insurance" is the best paying field for men; and "Information services" is not the best paying field for either sex, although it is near the top. In the USA, in contrast, "Education" is definitely not competitive with tech as far as salaries. These are not the kind of sources I would use to study these things, by the way, because they break things down by industry or profession rather than role and these sources use incredibly broad "industry" and "profession" categories.
- junar 5y ago
  If you know of better sources, I'd love to take a look. I can read Japanese, but I'm way better at searching stuff up in English.

Cookingboy 5y ago

>Salaries and prestige are relatively low for developers in Japan Yeah, I was pretty surprised to hear that a Senior Engineering Manager at Rakuten, the "Japanese Amazon" and one of their top software companies, only has the TC of somewhere around $100k USD. And the position was in Tokyo, not exactly a cheap place. Many senior engineers at "top tier" domestic software companies get paid somewhere around $70-$90k, which is pathetic for even LCOL areas in the U.S.

geebee 5y ago

I actually think we have the same problem, to a much lower degree, in the US. Clearly software engineers do get paid extremely well at top companies, and are paid reasonably at lower tiers. But in San Francisco and Silicon Valley, software engineers on average are only paid a little more than registered nurses and dental hygienists. Software Engineers: ~145k Registered Nurses: ~140k (note these are for SF and San Jose, not overall - the source for all this is at US News Best jobs which relies on labor dept data: https://money.usnews.com/careers/best-jobs https://money.usnews.com/careers/best-jobs). I've left a version of this comment a bunch of times on HN over the years, but I'll add the usual provisos - I don't object to nurses making lots of money, or more than software engineers for that matter, but I will point out that SEs overall really aren't remarkably well paid compared to other educated professionals. And while SEs at the top make well above the median, so do many nurses in specialties that require a MS or higher. I'm just not convinced that women would be well served by leaving nursing, law, finance, or medicine to go into tech. I don't mean this in a work-life balance "do you really want this" way. I mean, if women want to build substantial independent wealth, power, and influence, they may be well served by avoiding tech careers (or, if they work in tech, avoiding SE roles). Honestly, this is pretty much the same advice I'd give men. I'm hesitant to discourage anyone from tech or SE roles, since clearly people do have great careers in them, and it's the right choice for some people. What I resist is the notion that people should be choosing it more often than they do, when in fact, I think the low to medium level of interest in SE careers is probably the product outcome of smart people weighing the demands and rewards of a career relative to their personal professional and life interests. I consider it very rational that US citizens with choice generally choose not to become developers in the valley in the numbers that Silicon Valley execs think they should. It's not a huge coincidence that the people who staff these positions disproportionately work on visas that limit their range of free choice in career path.

gowld 5y ago
Is that Software Engineer salary accurate(despite being far lower than what all the household names pay), or is it excluding bonus and/or equity grants?
- 5y ago

makeitdouble 5y ago

> Salaries and prestige are relatively low for developers in Japan, so it's relatively easy for other jobs to compete for prospective workers and draw them away from technology. Another aspect to this is that IT is one of the few fields where there is a low tradition lock. Getting into the more prestigious and high paying areas can require either a better diploma, stronger adhesion to stereotypical profiles, or working way longer inside to climb the ranks. In comparison IT companies will be more focused on competence, accept lower social status in exchange for performance. I think this is true in other countries as well, but Japan looks to me like a poster child for this bias.