6 ms·

Yes. Women are awesome in tech, and the field needs much more of them. But the mass media portraying her as a rebel for coloring her hair, that's like... Tablo

Yes. Women are awesome in tech, and the field needs much more of them. But the mass media portraying her as a rebel for coloring her hair, that's like... Tabloid stuff.

Karrot_Kream 5y ago
In Japan it's still a big deal for women. Japanese value conformity and coloring your hair a bright color is a big way of sticking out.
nomdep 5y ago
> Yes. Women are awesome in tech, and the field needs much more of them. That absolutism sound sexists to me. Some women are awesome in tech, and some are not. Some women could be awesome but they don’t know it yet. The field needs more of those awesome women, not because they are women, but because they are awesome.
- rajin444 5y ago
  Why does this get downvoted? I don't think being a woman implies being awesome.
  - ueueshitashita 5y ago
    > Why does this get downvoted? Because HN in 2021 is a farce, and people who grey out comments they don't like are basically toddlers.
  - marcellus23 5y ago
    In general, you can't say anything that could be interpreted as sexism using the broadest possible definition of that word. Simply saying that not all women are amazing falls into that category unfortunately. Yes, it's ridiculous but that's the society we live in.
    - laurent92 5y ago
      It is ridiculous. And more ridiculous is to bring it up. What sane adult would mention it? Everyone knows it’s an unwritten rule. Let me downvote you for saying it out loud. This just in: Men constantly hide their emotions and we have no clue why they would do that. Why can’t they speak up about their problems like women do???
  - StevePerkins 5y ago
    "Black Lives Matter" does not imply that all lives don't matter. People who get bent out of shape and senselessly contrarian over these things tend to get downvoted... because we've been hashing it out for years now, and if you're still dying on hills at this point then it's because you're deliberately choosing to misinterpret for sake of seeking out an argument. Parent poster is clearly saying that greater female representation in the industry is a good thing. Not that every single female on the planet is literally a great computer programmer.
    - ueueshitashita 5y ago
      > "Black Lives Matter" does not imply that all lives don't matter. But "#believeallwomen" implies that women never lie.
    - angelzen 5y ago
      Tech industry workforce is not a representative body. Normally we'd describe the situation as 'greater female participation in the industry'. The dissonance is reminiscent of Russell's conjugation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emotive_conjugation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emotive_conjugation Bertrand Russell, who expounded the concept in 1948 on the BBC Radio programme The Brains Trust, cited the examples: I am firm, you are obstinate, he is a pig-headed fool. I am righteously indignant, you are annoyed, he is making a fuss over nothing. I have reconsidered the matter, you have changed your mind, he has gone back on his word.
    - kflzufkrbzi 5y ago
      "Blue lives matter" does not imply blacks lives dont matter, but I would imagine BLM protesters dont see it that way? Perhaps you could even say they are "deliberately choosing to misinterpret for sake of seeking out an argument". You make a generous interpretion for the parent, but not so much for the reply. It's just politics.
      - detaro 5y ago
        "Blue Lives Matter" went around telling press that they choose that name as deliberate attack against Black Lives Matter, so it would be unfair to their wishes to not treat it as what they want it to be?
- endisneigh 5y ago
  You’re reading too much into the comment imo - my read is that they’re simply responding to the title: “can it find a place for women?” “Yes, women are awesome in tech” Basically they’re just supporting women in tech
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - Jetrel 5y ago
    It's worth pointing out that even by most "legitimately" gendered issues relating to careerism, tech caters pretty well to women's needs. A lot of women do, in fact, want to pursue motherhood, and tech is one of the easiest careers to stay involved in during the time-and-obligation demands thereof, rivaled only by a few other careers like writing. There are many careers (ones that require you to travel, ones that require lots of in-person onsite availability) that genuinely are really tough for young mothers, and it forces a classic feminism catch-22 on them; namely, an unpleasant need to make a choice between seeking fulfillment via having a career, versus seeking personal fulfillment via motherhood. It's just really unfair that one has to choose and can't just do both. As it turns out, there are a lot of careers where you can have both with no problem; but there are others that are a bad fit. (For an example of a career that fits this really poorly, take truck driving.)
- serial_dev 5y ago
  Within the context, it's clear to me, that the comment was not sexist. Can we write anything without 5 paragraphs of caveats and clarifications after every innocent sentence?
cannonpr 5y ago
Japan is a very different society than the US or Europe, the comment on colouring hair being an incredibly rebelious thing in Japan is entirely valid. Not having black hair has lead to bullying so extreme in some situations that it has lead to suicides.
- tdeck 5y ago
  Apparently some schools in Japan have a policy that your hair must be black. At least one student sued because of this, saying she was forced to dye her hair black to satisfy the rule: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-56099237 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-56099237
- rightbyte 5y ago
  Come on did you see the picture? In Europe or US having pink hair will also lower your chances of getting a job, unless it is an artsy place.
  - drxzcl 5y ago
    It's not the 1950's anymore. In any job where workers have a modicum of bargaining power, it's perfectly fine. This goes treble for tech, which skews younger, less conservative and suffers from severe labor scarcity.
    - nr2x 5y ago
      Tell that to a law firm.
      - filoleg 5y ago
        Law firm or corporate finance? Sure, agreed, that would be a bit out there. Probably includes some other industries i cannot think of right now. Tech? Please don't make me laugh. Working at MSFT for a while, I've seen plenty of people in-person (even in management) with visible massive tattoos (even one with full neck covered in ink), piercings, and I am not gonna even start on wild hair styles and colors. One of the very senior people I've gotten a chance to work with had her hair color being split in half right down the middle - half black half white (ala Cruella from Disney's 101 Dalmatians). And mind you, out of all the big tech companies, MSFT is one of those that imo skews a bit of an older crowd, so I don't doubt this kind of stuff is even more common at places like FB. One of my friends is a doctor in the deep south, and his arm is fully tattoed and is on open display at work (short sleeves). From my anecdotal experience, every time I go for an annual physical checkup with my primary doctor (in PNW), more than half of his nurse staff has either bright-colored hair or tons of tattoos (or, not uncommonly, both). All of this is extremely acceptable in the US these days, barring few specific industries that still insist on ultrastrict "suit-and-tie" dress code and some rural areas. But in major cities? It would be impossible for me to walk through a block on the street without seeing at least one person with either neon-colored hair or very covered in ink or with tons of piercings.
CobaltFire 5y ago
In America the saying is "The squeaky wheel gets the grease". In Japan the equivalent is "The nail that sticks up gets hammered down". Her dying her hair is ABSOLUTELY a large act of rebellion there.
- mc32 5y ago
  To add, until recently, people who naturally had a different color of hair were required to dye their hair black for primary school.
teawrecks 5y ago
> the mass media portraying her as a rebel for coloring her hair, that's like... Tabloid stuff. I think you're underestimating the stigma against different hair colors in Japan. Japanese culture puts a heavy emphasis on not sticking out, to the point that even having a natural hair color that is different from the norm can be viewed as being rebellious. https://www.businessinsider.com/japanese-students-hair-color-2017-5?op=1 https://www.businessinsider.com/japanese-students-hair-color... https://soranews24.com/2019/08/03/tokyo-public-schools-will-stop-forcing-students-with-non-black-hair-to-dye-it-official-promises/ https://soranews24.com/2019/08/03/tokyo-public-schools-will-...
908B64B197 5y ago
> Yes. Women are awesome in tech, and the field needs much more of them. Shouldn't we hire/want people in the field because they are passionate and want to be there rather than some arbitrary skin pigmentation or assigned gender?

Yes. Women are awesome in tech, and the field needs much more of them. But the mass media portraying her as a rebel for coloring her hair, that's like... Tabloid stuff.

Karrot_Kream 5y ago

In Japan it's still a big deal for women. Japanese value conformity and coloring your hair a bright color is a big way of sticking out.

nomdep 5y ago

> Yes. Women are awesome in tech, and the field needs much more of them. That absolutism sound sexists to me. Some women are awesome in tech, and some are not. Some women could be awesome but they don’t know it yet. The field needs more of those awesome women, not because they are women, but because they are awesome.

rajin444 5y ago
Why does this get downvoted? I don't think being a woman implies being awesome.
- ueueshitashita 5y ago
  > Why does this get downvoted? Because HN in 2021 is a farce, and people who grey out comments they don't like are basically toddlers.
- marcellus23 5y ago
  In general, you can't say anything that could be interpreted as sexism using the broadest possible definition of that word. Simply saying that not all women are amazing falls into that category unfortunately. Yes, it's ridiculous but that's the society we live in.
  - laurent92 5y ago
    It is ridiculous. And more ridiculous is to bring it up. What sane adult would mention it? Everyone knows it’s an unwritten rule. Let me downvote you for saying it out loud. This just in: Men constantly hide their emotions and we have no clue why they would do that. Why can’t they speak up about their problems like women do???
- StevePerkins 5y ago
  "Black Lives Matter" does not imply that all lives don't matter. People who get bent out of shape and senselessly contrarian over these things tend to get downvoted... because we've been hashing it out for years now, and if you're still dying on hills at this point then it's because you're deliberately choosing to misinterpret for sake of seeking out an argument. Parent poster is clearly saying that greater female representation in the industry is a good thing. Not that every single female on the planet is literally a great computer programmer.
  - ueueshitashita 5y ago
    > "Black Lives Matter" does not imply that all lives don't matter. But "#believeallwomen" implies that women never lie.
  - angelzen 5y ago
    Tech industry workforce is not a representative body. Normally we'd describe the situation as 'greater female participation in the industry'. The dissonance is reminiscent of Russell's conjugation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emotive_conjugation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emotive_conjugation Bertrand Russell, who expounded the concept in 1948 on the BBC Radio programme The Brains Trust, cited the examples: I am firm, you are obstinate, he is a pig-headed fool. I am righteously indignant, you are annoyed, he is making a fuss over nothing. I have reconsidered the matter, you have changed your mind, he has gone back on his word.
  - kflzufkrbzi 5y ago
    "Blue lives matter" does not imply blacks lives dont matter, but I would imagine BLM protesters dont see it that way? Perhaps you could even say they are "deliberately choosing to misinterpret for sake of seeking out an argument". You make a generous interpretion for the parent, but not so much for the reply. It's just politics.
    - detaro 5y ago
      "Blue Lives Matter" went around telling press that they choose that name as deliberate attack against Black Lives Matter, so it would be unfair to their wishes to not treat it as what they want it to be?
endisneigh 5y ago
You’re reading too much into the comment imo - my read is that they’re simply responding to the title: “can it find a place for women?” “Yes, women are awesome in tech” Basically they’re just supporting women in tech
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- Jetrel 5y ago
  It's worth pointing out that even by most "legitimately" gendered issues relating to careerism, tech caters pretty well to women's needs. A lot of women do, in fact, want to pursue motherhood, and tech is one of the easiest careers to stay involved in during the time-and-obligation demands thereof, rivaled only by a few other careers like writing. There are many careers (ones that require you to travel, ones that require lots of in-person onsite availability) that genuinely are really tough for young mothers, and it forces a classic feminism catch-22 on them; namely, an unpleasant need to make a choice between seeking fulfillment via having a career, versus seeking personal fulfillment via motherhood. It's just really unfair that one has to choose and can't just do both. As it turns out, there are a lot of careers where you can have both with no problem; but there are others that are a bad fit. (For an example of a career that fits this really poorly, take truck driving.)
serial_dev 5y ago
Within the context, it's clear to me, that the comment was not sexist. Can we write anything without 5 paragraphs of caveats and clarifications after every innocent sentence?

cannonpr 5y ago

Japan is a very different society than the US or Europe, the comment on colouring hair being an incredibly rebelious thing in Japan is entirely valid. Not having black hair has lead to bullying so extreme in some situations that it has lead to suicides.

tdeck 5y ago
Apparently some schools in Japan have a policy that your hair must be black. At least one student sued because of this, saying she was forced to dye her hair black to satisfy the rule: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-56099237 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-56099237
rightbyte 5y ago
Come on did you see the picture? In Europe or US having pink hair will also lower your chances of getting a job, unless it is an artsy place.
- drxzcl 5y ago
  It's not the 1950's anymore. In any job where workers have a modicum of bargaining power, it's perfectly fine. This goes treble for tech, which skews younger, less conservative and suffers from severe labor scarcity.
  - nr2x 5y ago
    Tell that to a law firm.
    - filoleg 5y ago
      Law firm or corporate finance? Sure, agreed, that would be a bit out there. Probably includes some other industries i cannot think of right now. Tech? Please don't make me laugh. Working at MSFT for a while, I've seen plenty of people in-person (even in management) with visible massive tattoos (even one with full neck covered in ink), piercings, and I am not gonna even start on wild hair styles and colors. One of the very senior people I've gotten a chance to work with had her hair color being split in half right down the middle - half black half white (ala Cruella from Disney's 101 Dalmatians). And mind you, out of all the big tech companies, MSFT is one of those that imo skews a bit of an older crowd, so I don't doubt this kind of stuff is even more common at places like FB. One of my friends is a doctor in the deep south, and his arm is fully tattoed and is on open display at work (short sleeves). From my anecdotal experience, every time I go for an annual physical checkup with my primary doctor (in PNW), more than half of his nurse staff has either bright-colored hair or tons of tattoos (or, not uncommonly, both). All of this is extremely acceptable in the US these days, barring few specific industries that still insist on ultrastrict "suit-and-tie" dress code and some rural areas. But in major cities? It would be impossible for me to walk through a block on the street without seeing at least one person with either neon-colored hair or very covered in ink or with tons of piercings.

CobaltFire 5y ago

In America the saying is "The squeaky wheel gets the grease". In Japan the equivalent is "The nail that sticks up gets hammered down". Her dying her hair is ABSOLUTELY a large act of rebellion there.

mc32 5y ago
To add, until recently, people who naturally had a different color of hair were required to dye their hair black for primary school.

teawrecks 5y ago

> the mass media portraying her as a rebel for coloring her hair, that's like... Tabloid stuff. I think you're underestimating the stigma against different hair colors in Japan. Japanese culture puts a heavy emphasis on not sticking out, to the point that even having a natural hair color that is different from the norm can be viewed as being rebellious. https://www.businessinsider.com/japanese-students-hair-color-2017-5?op=1 https://www.businessinsider.com/japanese-students-hair-color... https://soranews24.com/2019/08/03/tokyo-public-schools-will-stop-forcing-students-with-non-black-hair-to-dye-it-official-promises/ https://soranews24.com/2019/08/03/tokyo-public-schools-will-...

908B64B197 5y ago

> Yes. Women are awesome in tech, and the field needs much more of them. Shouldn't we hire/want people in the field because they are passionate and want to be there rather than some arbitrary skin pigmentation or assigned gender?