4 ms·

You should really examine why people want to “defend” borders. It’s mostly racism and classism. The most effective way to defend your borders is to improve the

You should really examine why people want to “defend” borders. It’s mostly racism and classism. The most effective way to defend your borders is to improve the lives of the people across the border. Yet… does anyone advocate for that? Nope… We undermine their governments and extract their resources to plunder from them instead. We create instability and allow violent regimes to be created and prosper. Could always not do that shit and help improve their lives… but not the American way… because we see those people as others who shouldn’t be near us and not like fellow human beings. (And frequently this is a white vs POC thing btw)

debacle 5y ago
I want to defend our borders. I am very pro-immigration, and I have seen firsthand the crazy hoops that well-qualified people need to jump through to come to this country, and I think those hoops are wrong. I think migrant worker programs are wrong. I think that we, as a country, are wealthy enough to let many people in and that those people will be an asset to our country. But I still want to defend our borders. I don't think that there is a dichotomy between wanting strong border protections and also being disappointed in the actions that the US government has taken for 80+ years across the globe (and domestically) in the name of freedom and democracy.
slumdev 5y ago
> You should really examine why people want to “defend” borders. It’s mostly racism and classism. The most effective way to defend your borders is to improve the lives of the people across the border. Yet… does anyone advocate for that? Nope… We undermine their governments and extract their resources to plunder from them instead. We create instability and allow violent regimes to be created and prosper. You call your opponents racist and classist and then quickly change the subject to US foreign policy. The burden of proof is on you to demonstrate that your opponents are motivated by race and class rather than peace and the rule of law. I've examined my motives and have no trouble sleeping at night. What are your motives? Why do you need to calumniate people who disagree with you?
- bradlys 5y ago
  > The burden of proof is on you to demonstrate that your opponents are motivated by race and class rather than peace and the rule of law. Cause all those countries we plunder are clearly not full of POC. /s
  - slumdev 5y ago
    More deflection. Using language to dehumanize people who disagree with you is immature and demonstrates the moral bankruptcy of the left.
    - 1634347773432 5y ago
      "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!" Every single scientific study done on immigration shows that immigration benefits the host country, or maybe, to quote Tucker Carlson, it turns out that immigration doesn't really make our country "poorer and dirtier". THOSE are OUR "fundamentally American values".
      - slumdev 5y ago
        > "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!" This quote might not be what you wanted to use. Everyone who entered at Ellis Island was a legal immigrant. They didn't pay a coyote to help them jump a fence and elude border patrol.
      - TMWNN 5y ago
        >"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!" First, Emma Lazarus's bad poetry was added to the base of the Statue of Liberty 20 years after the statue itself, as a fundraising effort. Second, bad poetry does not policy nor law make. Third, as slumdev's mysteriously crossed-out comment accurately states, in any case, every single person who came through Ellis Island * was a legal immigrant * had passed a medical inspection * had proof of having enough resources to pay for their upkeep in the US, or a US financial sponsor guaranteeing same * was turned away if failing any of the above tests, with no possibility of appeal I, for one, am very much in favor of reinstating such barriers to entering the US. PS - One more thing: Every single person who came through Ellis Island was coming to a country with an enormous demand for unskilled labor. This is no longer true.
pandaman 5y ago
Why is it most effective, can you give a price estimate? The USSR had the longest and very well defended border with 230 thousand strong border guard. Let's say the US, with a much shorter border needs as many troops just to be sure. At this time the CBP has 62k troops and 18.2B budget. So for 47B more we could get the stronger border guard than the USSR to guard a shorter border than the USSR. Meanwhile, we spent 47B on average in pure foreign aid in 2013-2018, not counting indirect spending through trade agreements and such and still get hundreds of thousands foreigners crossing illegally every month. I don't see how the money spent on foreign aid are effective at all. https://www.forbes.com/sites/adamandrzejewski/2021/08/04/new-report-nearly-300-billion-in-foreign-aid-spent-by-us-government/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/adamandrzejewski/2021/08/04/new... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Customs_and_Border_Protection https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Customs_and_Border_Prot... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_Border_Troops https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_Border_Troops

debacle 5y ago

I want to defend our borders. I am very pro-immigration, and I have seen firsthand the crazy hoops that well-qualified people need to jump through to come to this country, and I think those hoops are wrong. I think migrant worker programs are wrong. I think that we, as a country, are wealthy enough to let many people in and that those people will be an asset to our country. But I still want to defend our borders. I don't think that there is a dichotomy between wanting strong border protections and also being disappointed in the actions that the US government has taken for 80+ years across the globe (and domestically) in the name of freedom and democracy.

slumdev 5y ago

> You should really examine why people want to “defend” borders. It’s mostly racism and classism. The most effective way to defend your borders is to improve the lives of the people across the border. Yet… does anyone advocate for that? Nope… We undermine their governments and extract their resources to plunder from them instead. We create instability and allow violent regimes to be created and prosper. You call your opponents racist and classist and then quickly change the subject to US foreign policy. The burden of proof is on you to demonstrate that your opponents are motivated by race and class rather than peace and the rule of law. I've examined my motives and have no trouble sleeping at night. What are your motives? Why do you need to calumniate people who disagree with you?

bradlys 5y ago
> The burden of proof is on you to demonstrate that your opponents are motivated by race and class rather than peace and the rule of law. Cause all those countries we plunder are clearly not full of POC. /s
- slumdev 5y ago
  More deflection. Using language to dehumanize people who disagree with you is immature and demonstrates the moral bankruptcy of the left.
  - 1634347773432 5y ago
    "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!" Every single scientific study done on immigration shows that immigration benefits the host country, or maybe, to quote Tucker Carlson, it turns out that immigration doesn't really make our country "poorer and dirtier". THOSE are OUR "fundamentally American values".
    - slumdev 5y ago
      > "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!" This quote might not be what you wanted to use. Everyone who entered at Ellis Island was a legal immigrant. They didn't pay a coyote to help them jump a fence and elude border patrol.
    - TMWNN 5y ago
      >"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!" First, Emma Lazarus's bad poetry was added to the base of the Statue of Liberty 20 years after the statue itself, as a fundraising effort. Second, bad poetry does not policy nor law make. Third, as slumdev's mysteriously crossed-out comment accurately states, in any case, every single person who came through Ellis Island * was a legal immigrant * had passed a medical inspection * had proof of having enough resources to pay for their upkeep in the US, or a US financial sponsor guaranteeing same * was turned away if failing any of the above tests, with no possibility of appeal I, for one, am very much in favor of reinstating such barriers to entering the US. PS - One more thing: Every single person who came through Ellis Island was coming to a country with an enormous demand for unskilled labor. This is no longer true.

pandaman 5y ago

Why is it most effective, can you give a price estimate? The USSR had the longest and very well defended border with 230 thousand strong border guard. Let's say the US, with a much shorter border needs as many troops just to be sure. At this time the CBP has 62k troops and 18.2B budget. So for 47B more we could get the stronger border guard than the USSR to guard a shorter border than the USSR. Meanwhile, we spent 47B on average in pure foreign aid in 2013-2018, not counting indirect spending through trade agreements and such and still get hundreds of thousands foreigners crossing illegally every month. I don't see how the money spent on foreign aid are effective at all. https://www.forbes.com/sites/adamandrzejewski/2021/08/04/new-report-nearly-300-billion-in-foreign-aid-spent-by-us-government/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/adamandrzejewski/2021/08/04/new... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Customs_and_Border_Protection https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Customs_and_Border_Prot... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_Border_Troops https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_Border_Troops