6 ms·

Libby and the bizarre false scarcity model of e-book sharing is the kind of weird crap you end up when you try taking existing laws and paradigms and applying t

Libby and the bizarre false scarcity model of e-book sharing is the kind of weird crap you end up when you try taking existing laws and paradigms and applying them to the digital landscape. There is absolutely no reason that a kid should have to wait in a queue to borrow an e-book because the 3 "copies" they have are already in use. If it's about making sure authors are compensated appropriately, then we need to restructure licensing fees so that libraries are paying reasonable per-use licensing fees. But to pretend that there are only a few copies of this book we can borrow is asinine.

selykg 5y ago
I think there's a bigger issue here. Currently the library buy's x copies of an ebook, which they can then distribute out to members. This is the model you're saying is bad. But the benefit here is that the expense of the book is predetermined and controllable. If you were to switch to a model where they're pay per use, fundamentally the amount is lower initially. But what happens when a book is incredibly popular and there aren't any limits on who can read that book. Now the library could be on the hook for a large bill that never would've happened had they had more control over the book. Sure, they could set a limit per book on the per use rules, but say they hit that limit in 6 months out of the year, now the book is just unavailable for the remaining 6 months? I feel like per use complicates things. I hate the current model, too. But I don't think all libraries are super well funded.
- pavel_lishin 5y ago
  I don't think anyone in their right mind would say that e-books should be "pay per use" when borrowed at the library, any more than you'd institute a "pay per use" model with regular books, DVDs, etc.
  - nkurz 5y ago
    I don't know if it disproves your "right mind" argument, but here's Overdrive's CEO explaining the advantages of their new "Cost per Circ" model whereby libraries pay a smaller cost for each checkout rather than purchasing items in advance: https://overdrivesteve.com/pursuing-the-holy-grail-of-library-ebook-models/ https://overdrivesteve.com/pursuing-the-holy-grail-of-librar...
- blacksmith_tb 5y ago
  Yes, it could be that 'books' would only be available until they'd been 'borrowed' 100 times, at which point the library would have to buy/license additional 'copies' or patrons just couldn't read it any more. In some ways that seems fine, but there's a sadness to the idea of the library as a repository of knowledge going away, and being replaced by a vending machine.
  - nfriedly 5y ago
    I think the current "3 copies out at a time" model also has a 100 borrows and then the library has to buy it again. limitation. (The number is probably higher than 100, though.) Edit: I was wrong, it's lower than 100. From the article: > In 2011, HarperCollins introduced a new lending model that was capped at twenty-six checkouts, after which a library would need to purchase the book again.
    - selykg 5y ago
      Further proof that the library system is just plain being broken by publishers. There's a lot of bad shit in this world, but oh boy do I wish some of our country's leaders would solve problems like this. We don't elevate youth or those around us by limiting access to knowledge.
    - blacksmith_tb 5y ago
      That passage though does provide some more details: "For a classic work, which readers were likely to check out steadily for years to come, a library might purchase a handful of expensive perpetual licenses. With a flashy best-seller, which could be expected to lose steam over time, the library might buy a large number of cheaper licenses that would expire relatively quickly." At least perpetual licenses are an option.
xhkkffbf 5y ago
The simple solution is to go to a model where the author is paid per reader or maybe even per page that's read. For someone reason, though, people seem to cling to the idea of "borrowing copies". It worked reasonably well when the copies were on paper, but it doesn't make sense for digital versions.
- elliekelly 5y ago
  > The simple solution is to go to a model where the author is paid per reader or maybe even per page that's read. I think Kindle Unlimited might work this way?
  - Finnucane 5y ago
    And scams are rampant on the system.
- Thespian2 5y ago
  While I agree, there still remains the practical question of who would pay. In the physical book library world, the library pays for a quantity of physical books, and lends them for free to the patrons. They are reimbursed for various fixed costs by existing grants, and taxes, and similar funding streams. The physical scarcity supports this model, by capping costs. If we remove the scarcity, and pay authors per reader or per page (a good thing, in my opinion) we uncap the expense the library must bear if something becomes popular. One could shift the costs to the users, but then what is the point of the library? The user is just buying an ebook, and we already have markets for that. The library gives access to books to those who can't afford them. Artificial scarcity sucks, but actually serves a purpose in this context.
jawns 5y ago
> But to pretend that there are only a few copies of this book we can borrow is asinine. Is it really "borrowing" under the reforms you propose? And to take your argument a step further, why should there be a due date? If your borrowing a book doesn't prevent anyone else from borrowing it, then why should you need to "return" it at an appointed time? Boiled down, your proposal is really just a license to read the book, paid for by the library. I actually don't mind maintaining the artificial scarcity and pretending that digital assets are like physical assets, because: (1) it's no worse than the system we have in place now with physical books; (2) it doesn't require us to entirely revamp copyright law; and (3) it allows libraries to make the argument that once they buy a digital asset outright, they can "lend" it just as they do with physical books, under a set of principles commonly called Controlled Digital Lending. This is a better option than the status quo, where libraries have to pay highly marked up licensing fees for ebooks.
- leokennis 5y ago
  I'd say the correct analogy is movie rentals. * In the past, I rented a VHS tape of which there were 3 copies. Now I rent a movie from iTunes, there are infinite copies and I rent the right to watch it (as often as I'd like) within a 48 hour period. * In the past, I lended a physical book of which there were 3 copies. In my proposal I rent a book from Libby, there are infinite copies and I rent the right to read it (as often as I'd like) within a xyz day period (or I pay per day I lend it, some books take longer to finish than others).
  - NanWilder 5y ago
    You don’t pay enough in taxes to fund this model — not even a significant fraction of it. If you want to switch to a user-pays-to-rent model, there are iTunes/Netflix-alike options out there — go nuts. But our societies and our literature would be worse off if we all did.
    - ViViDboarder 5y ago
      It’s not a pay-to-rent mode they are proposing. They are proposing getting rid of scarcity and allowing folks to borrow for a period of time, as many times as they’d like. An option to keep it longer than the allotted time is akin to a late fee. In what way would more access to literature make society worse off?
hyperbovine 5y ago
It's funny, music piracy is all but dead, whereas book piracy appears to be alive and well. I guarantee you that kid will quickly learn how Googling "<title> pdf ebook" saves them three weeks of waiting. Whereas to listen to a song, they just go on Spotify or YouTube, blissfully unaware of what we had to do back in the day to get songs digitally.
- elliekelly 5y ago
  > whereas book piracy appears to be alive and well Not just alive and well, but monetized by sites like Scribd.
- wintermutestwin 5y ago
  Yes, interesting that book (and audiobook) publishers are further behind the music industry. And then there is movie and tv with it's inane fragmentation. One subscription for access to ALL the content is the way to beat piracy. Anything else is anti-consumer at this point.
  - webmaven 5y ago
    > One subscription for access to ALL the content is the way to beat piracy. Anything else is anti-consumer at this point. So what do you do when an Amazon Prime membership is required to access most contemporary books? Or when you have to get several different all-you-can-read memberships to access all the authors you like. Eg. first there was just Netflix, now there is Hulu, Disney+ and Paramount+ as well if you want to see The Handmaid's Tale, Stranger Things, Game of Thrones, Star Trek: whatever, The Expanse, Star Wars & Avengers movies (to name just a few of the most popular and culturally relevant shows and movie franchises). Whether there is a monopoly or oligopoly doesn't make much difference to consumers, though it does make some difference to content creators. To make a system like you describe palatable over the long term, you would have to add in structural separation (content owners can't also be distributors) and strictly limit the kind of exclusive licensing deals that are allowed (eg. require statutory licensing of some sort) so new publishers and distributors can't be prevented from entering the market.
librelibre 5y ago
I won't get into the ethics or morals of copyright, DMCA, licensing, and so forth. I've held my opinions for decades, and I tire of rehashing them. I'll just share what I've been doing recently. You'll have to Duck for the links. Calibre is a crazy awesome e-book swiss army knife utility. A user "apprenticeharper" has a "DeDRM_tools" repo on GitHub that includes a Wiki that has a lot of this info. This includes a plugin for Calibre to strip the DRM from books like the ones you get for Amazon Kindle. When you "check out" an e-book from your library via Amazon Kindle, Amazon will "wrap" the book encryption keys with your own individual account keys. The De_DRM plugin uses your own individual account private key to unwrap the book key that then decrypts the book contents. The Amazon Kindle PC and Mac apps store your private key to disk. I have Kindle reader version 1.17.0 (44170) installed on Win10, and under "Tools -> General" I have "Automatically install updates when they are available without asking me" unchecked. I found that version of the reader by searching online and downloading a mystery binary. The hash of the binary checked out with hashes I found posted in forums talking about it, so I'm not really that worried about the authenticity of it. If you're really concerned you can run all this in a VM, which probably wouldn't be a bad idea. So after you "check out" the book via the library, the book will show up in your Amazon Kindle library. You can download it in the Kindle app. At that point the book that's "wrapped" with your account keys will be in a place like "Documents\My Kindle Content" as an .azw file. After I installed the DeDRM plugin for Calibre I went to "Preferences -> Plugins -> DeDrm (7.2.1) by Apprentice Alf, ...." and double-clicked on it. Then I selected "Kindle for Mac/PC ebooks" and made sure "default_key" was present. Note that you can also "Import Existing Keyfiles," and at one point I had success using a Kindle device key (you have to download an .azw file from Amazon Kindle's web site that's wrapped with your device key for that to work). But the Kindle app is easiest for me. "default_key" will cause the plugin to look for your on-disk keys in the usual location that the Kindle app drops them in your local filesystem. If you want to see the magic you can restart Calibre in debug mode (under the Preferences menu, or Ctrl+Shift+R). This will drop a log file from the plugin telling you what it's trying to do and why it might have problems finding your account private key. Once the Calibre with DeDRM plugin is working and accessing my Kindle app account key, I can click-and-drag the .azw file in the "My Kindle Content" into Calibre, and Calibre will strip the DRM and store the e-book file under your "Calibre Library" directory. You can then use the "Convert books" context menu for the book to export to EPUB or MOBI format. I use EPUB for my Kobo reader and MOBI for my Kindle reader. Once you have it all set up, the process is pretty quick and straightforward. It takes me just a couple of minutes. For the occasional Adobe Digital Editions e-book (.acsm file) I simply use the Adobe Digital Editions app to download and then grab the .epub file from the "Documents\My Digital Editions" directory. For audiobooks, those are distributed as .odm files. I use the "overdrive.sh" script from chbrown's overdrive repo on GitHub to download the audio files, which get distributed without DRM. I wrote another script to combine the audio files into one big audio file because that's more convenient for me to work with. I use the BookPlayer app on my mobile device to listen to them. I try to do all of this the same day my e-book becomes available for checkout so that I can return the e-book ASAP to help the next person waiting in the queue to get access to it.
sparrc 5y ago
> There is absolutely no reason that a kid should have to wait in a queue to borrow an e-book because the 3 "copies" they have are already in use. There definitely is a reason, it keeps the cost fixed for the library. Libraries have a fixed budget, they can't pay per-use because they don't receive income per-use.
- esrauch 5y ago
  I think op is arguing that somewhere libraries should be able to have reasonably fixed budgets and not have this constraint, though more aggressive legislation that weakens publisher's rights. I think it's possible with things like reducing copyright durations entirely to get a healthier public domain offering instead of books written by people whose grandchildren or even great-grandchildren have died of old age still covered by copyright. I actually just checked and I think there's no infinity copy ebooks on Libby at all; even books that are long since in the public domain have a fixed number of copies to borrow that presumably the library is still paying someone for per-copy.
PalaceProject 5y ago
There are a lot of layers to licensing e-content that you have to navigate to be able to lend ebooks though libraries. I'm working with a non-profit right now on this problem, working on open source apps to make it easier and more patron friendly for libraries to lend ebooks. The project website is here: https://thepalaceproject.org https://thepalaceproject.org and our github is here: https://github.com/ThePalaceProject https://github.com/ThePalaceProject If there are any talented mobile developers out there that would like to work on this problem, we are looking for iOS and Android developers. The team is 100% remote, and its work that you can feel good about. Drop me a line at: hn@palaceproject.io.
danans 5y ago
> the bizarre false scarcity model of e-book sharing The scarcity is in our willingness to pay sufficient taxes to allow the library to purchase more book licenses, and in doing so possibly negotiate bulk discounts. That is, unless you are arguing that the government should force authors/publishers to sell their e-books at a discount to public libraries. It's not clear why authors/publishers would agree to that.
- pirate787 5y ago
  Strawman argument. The reality is the vast majority of books should already be free to distribute, as the copyright should have expired. Just roll back copyright to 28 years, as it was originally in the US, and let information be free.
prepend 5y ago
I use Libby quite a bit with my local library and it is frustrating. But I’m also amazed that publishers allow it at all. It’s the closest thing we have to a library and unless we special legislation, I think we’re stuck.

selykg 5y ago

I think there's a bigger issue here. Currently the library buy's x copies of an ebook, which they can then distribute out to members. This is the model you're saying is bad. But the benefit here is that the expense of the book is predetermined and controllable. If you were to switch to a model where they're pay per use, fundamentally the amount is lower initially. But what happens when a book is incredibly popular and there aren't any limits on who can read that book. Now the library could be on the hook for a large bill that never would've happened had they had more control over the book. Sure, they could set a limit per book on the per use rules, but say they hit that limit in 6 months out of the year, now the book is just unavailable for the remaining 6 months? I feel like per use complicates things. I hate the current model, too. But I don't think all libraries are super well funded.

pavel_lishin 5y ago
I don't think anyone in their right mind would say that e-books should be "pay per use" when borrowed at the library, any more than you'd institute a "pay per use" model with regular books, DVDs, etc.
- nkurz 5y ago
  I don't know if it disproves your "right mind" argument, but here's Overdrive's CEO explaining the advantages of their new "Cost per Circ" model whereby libraries pay a smaller cost for each checkout rather than purchasing items in advance: https://overdrivesteve.com/pursuing-the-holy-grail-of-library-ebook-models/ https://overdrivesteve.com/pursuing-the-holy-grail-of-librar...
blacksmith_tb 5y ago
Yes, it could be that 'books' would only be available until they'd been 'borrowed' 100 times, at which point the library would have to buy/license additional 'copies' or patrons just couldn't read it any more. In some ways that seems fine, but there's a sadness to the idea of the library as a repository of knowledge going away, and being replaced by a vending machine.
- nfriedly 5y ago
  I think the current "3 copies out at a time" model also has a 100 borrows and then the library has to buy it again. limitation. (The number is probably higher than 100, though.) Edit: I was wrong, it's lower than 100. From the article: > In 2011, HarperCollins introduced a new lending model that was capped at twenty-six checkouts, after which a library would need to purchase the book again.
  - selykg 5y ago
    Further proof that the library system is just plain being broken by publishers. There's a lot of bad shit in this world, but oh boy do I wish some of our country's leaders would solve problems like this. We don't elevate youth or those around us by limiting access to knowledge.
  - blacksmith_tb 5y ago
    That passage though does provide some more details: "For a classic work, which readers were likely to check out steadily for years to come, a library might purchase a handful of expensive perpetual licenses. With a flashy best-seller, which could be expected to lose steam over time, the library might buy a large number of cheaper licenses that would expire relatively quickly." At least perpetual licenses are an option.

xhkkffbf 5y ago

The simple solution is to go to a model where the author is paid per reader or maybe even per page that's read. For someone reason, though, people seem to cling to the idea of "borrowing copies". It worked reasonably well when the copies were on paper, but it doesn't make sense for digital versions.

elliekelly 5y ago
> The simple solution is to go to a model where the author is paid per reader or maybe even per page that's read. I think Kindle Unlimited might work this way?
- Finnucane 5y ago
  And scams are rampant on the system.
Thespian2 5y ago
While I agree, there still remains the practical question of who would pay. In the physical book library world, the library pays for a quantity of physical books, and lends them for free to the patrons. They are reimbursed for various fixed costs by existing grants, and taxes, and similar funding streams. The physical scarcity supports this model, by capping costs. If we remove the scarcity, and pay authors per reader or per page (a good thing, in my opinion) we uncap the expense the library must bear if something becomes popular. One could shift the costs to the users, but then what is the point of the library? The user is just buying an ebook, and we already have markets for that. The library gives access to books to those who can't afford them. Artificial scarcity sucks, but actually serves a purpose in this context.

jawns 5y ago

> But to pretend that there are only a few copies of this book we can borrow is asinine. Is it really "borrowing" under the reforms you propose? And to take your argument a step further, why should there be a due date? If your borrowing a book doesn't prevent anyone else from borrowing it, then why should you need to "return" it at an appointed time? Boiled down, your proposal is really just a license to read the book, paid for by the library. I actually don't mind maintaining the artificial scarcity and pretending that digital assets are like physical assets, because: (1) it's no worse than the system we have in place now with physical books; (2) it doesn't require us to entirely revamp copyright law; and (3) it allows libraries to make the argument that once they buy a digital asset outright, they can "lend" it just as they do with physical books, under a set of principles commonly called Controlled Digital Lending. This is a better option than the status quo, where libraries have to pay highly marked up licensing fees for ebooks.

leokennis 5y ago
I'd say the correct analogy is movie rentals. * In the past, I rented a VHS tape of which there were 3 copies. Now I rent a movie from iTunes, there are infinite copies and I rent the right to watch it (as often as I'd like) within a 48 hour period. * In the past, I lended a physical book of which there were 3 copies. In my proposal I rent a book from Libby, there are infinite copies and I rent the right to read it (as often as I'd like) within a xyz day period (or I pay per day I lend it, some books take longer to finish than others).
- NanWilder 5y ago
  You don’t pay enough in taxes to fund this model — not even a significant fraction of it. If you want to switch to a user-pays-to-rent model, there are iTunes/Netflix-alike options out there — go nuts. But our societies and our literature would be worse off if we all did.
  - ViViDboarder 5y ago
    It’s not a pay-to-rent mode they are proposing. They are proposing getting rid of scarcity and allowing folks to borrow for a period of time, as many times as they’d like. An option to keep it longer than the allotted time is akin to a late fee. In what way would more access to literature make society worse off?

hyperbovine 5y ago

It's funny, music piracy is all but dead, whereas book piracy appears to be alive and well. I guarantee you that kid will quickly learn how Googling "<title> pdf ebook" saves them three weeks of waiting. Whereas to listen to a song, they just go on Spotify or YouTube, blissfully unaware of what we had to do back in the day to get songs digitally.

elliekelly 5y ago
> whereas book piracy appears to be alive and well Not just alive and well, but monetized by sites like Scribd.
wintermutestwin 5y ago
Yes, interesting that book (and audiobook) publishers are further behind the music industry. And then there is movie and tv with it's inane fragmentation. One subscription for access to ALL the content is the way to beat piracy. Anything else is anti-consumer at this point.
- webmaven 5y ago
  > One subscription for access to ALL the content is the way to beat piracy. Anything else is anti-consumer at this point. So what do you do when an Amazon Prime membership is required to access most contemporary books? Or when you have to get several different all-you-can-read memberships to access all the authors you like. Eg. first there was just Netflix, now there is Hulu, Disney+ and Paramount+ as well if you want to see The Handmaid's Tale, Stranger Things, Game of Thrones, Star Trek: whatever, The Expanse, Star Wars & Avengers movies (to name just a few of the most popular and culturally relevant shows and movie franchises). Whether there is a monopoly or oligopoly doesn't make much difference to consumers, though it does make some difference to content creators. To make a system like you describe palatable over the long term, you would have to add in structural separation (content owners can't also be distributors) and strictly limit the kind of exclusive licensing deals that are allowed (eg. require statutory licensing of some sort) so new publishers and distributors can't be prevented from entering the market.

librelibre 5y ago

I won't get into the ethics or morals of copyright, DMCA, licensing, and so forth. I've held my opinions for decades, and I tire of rehashing them. I'll just share what I've been doing recently. You'll have to Duck for the links. Calibre is a crazy awesome e-book swiss army knife utility. A user "apprenticeharper" has a "DeDRM_tools" repo on GitHub that includes a Wiki that has a lot of this info. This includes a plugin for Calibre to strip the DRM from books like the ones you get for Amazon Kindle. When you "check out" an e-book from your library via Amazon Kindle, Amazon will "wrap" the book encryption keys with your own individual account keys. The De_DRM plugin uses your own individual account private key to unwrap the book key that then decrypts the book contents. The Amazon Kindle PC and Mac apps store your private key to disk. I have Kindle reader version 1.17.0 (44170) installed on Win10, and under "Tools -> General" I have "Automatically install updates when they are available without asking me" unchecked. I found that version of the reader by searching online and downloading a mystery binary. The hash of the binary checked out with hashes I found posted in forums talking about it, so I'm not really that worried about the authenticity of it. If you're really concerned you can run all this in a VM, which probably wouldn't be a bad idea. So after you "check out" the book via the library, the book will show up in your Amazon Kindle library. You can download it in the Kindle app. At that point the book that's "wrapped" with your account keys will be in a place like "Documents\My Kindle Content" as an .azw file. After I installed the DeDRM plugin for Calibre I went to "Preferences -> Plugins -> DeDrm (7.2.1) by Apprentice Alf, ...." and double-clicked on it. Then I selected "Kindle for Mac/PC ebooks" and made sure "default_key" was present. Note that you can also "Import Existing Keyfiles," and at one point I had success using a Kindle device key (you have to download an .azw file from Amazon Kindle's web site that's wrapped with your device key for that to work). But the Kindle app is easiest for me. "default_key" will cause the plugin to look for your on-disk keys in the usual location that the Kindle app drops them in your local filesystem. If you want to see the magic you can restart Calibre in debug mode (under the Preferences menu, or Ctrl+Shift+R). This will drop a log file from the plugin telling you what it's trying to do and why it might have problems finding your account private key. Once the Calibre with DeDRM plugin is working and accessing my Kindle app account key, I can click-and-drag the .azw file in the "My Kindle Content" into Calibre, and Calibre will strip the DRM and store the e-book file under your "Calibre Library" directory. You can then use the "Convert books" context menu for the book to export to EPUB or MOBI format. I use EPUB for my Kobo reader and MOBI for my Kindle reader. Once you have it all set up, the process is pretty quick and straightforward. It takes me just a couple of minutes. For the occasional Adobe Digital Editions e-book (.acsm file) I simply use the Adobe Digital Editions app to download and then grab the .epub file from the "Documents\My Digital Editions" directory. For audiobooks, those are distributed as .odm files. I use the "overdrive.sh" script from chbrown's overdrive repo on GitHub to download the audio files, which get distributed without DRM. I wrote another script to combine the audio files into one big audio file because that's more convenient for me to work with. I use the BookPlayer app on my mobile device to listen to them. I try to do all of this the same day my e-book becomes available for checkout so that I can return the e-book ASAP to help the next person waiting in the queue to get access to it.

sparrc 5y ago

> There is absolutely no reason that a kid should have to wait in a queue to borrow an e-book because the 3 "copies" they have are already in use. There definitely is a reason, it keeps the cost fixed for the library. Libraries have a fixed budget, they can't pay per-use because they don't receive income per-use.

esrauch 5y ago
I think op is arguing that somewhere libraries should be able to have reasonably fixed budgets and not have this constraint, though more aggressive legislation that weakens publisher's rights. I think it's possible with things like reducing copyright durations entirely to get a healthier public domain offering instead of books written by people whose grandchildren or even great-grandchildren have died of old age still covered by copyright. I actually just checked and I think there's no infinity copy ebooks on Libby at all; even books that are long since in the public domain have a fixed number of copies to borrow that presumably the library is still paying someone for per-copy.

PalaceProject 5y ago

There are a lot of layers to licensing e-content that you have to navigate to be able to lend ebooks though libraries. I'm working with a non-profit right now on this problem, working on open source apps to make it easier and more patron friendly for libraries to lend ebooks. The project website is here: https://thepalaceproject.org https://thepalaceproject.org and our github is here: https://github.com/ThePalaceProject https://github.com/ThePalaceProject If there are any talented mobile developers out there that would like to work on this problem, we are looking for iOS and Android developers. The team is 100% remote, and its work that you can feel good about. Drop me a line at: hn@palaceproject.io.

danans 5y ago

> the bizarre false scarcity model of e-book sharing The scarcity is in our willingness to pay sufficient taxes to allow the library to purchase more book licenses, and in doing so possibly negotiate bulk discounts. That is, unless you are arguing that the government should force authors/publishers to sell their e-books at a discount to public libraries. It's not clear why authors/publishers would agree to that.

pirate787 5y ago
Strawman argument. The reality is the vast majority of books should already be free to distribute, as the copyright should have expired. Just roll back copyright to 28 years, as it was originally in the US, and let information be free.

prepend 5y ago

I use Libby quite a bit with my local library and it is frustrating. But I’m also amazed that publishers allow it at all. It’s the closest thing we have to a library and unless we special legislation, I think we’re stuck.