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I can't tell if they are developers or not, but I have seen what I'll refer to as "evangelists" of GrapheneOS spread a lot of misinformation about LineageOS and

by kop316 5y ago

I can't tell if they are developers or not, but I have seen what I'll refer to as "evangelists" of GrapheneOS spread a lot of misinformation about LineageOS and Mainline Linux phones, then when ignore technical arguments and block people who raise those technical arguments. After seeing it a few times, it really makes me uneasy to use GrapheneOS. Heck, I switched back to LineageOS because of this behavior. In the Linux phone community, we all have our preferences (I use Mobian and am a Mobian Dev), but we are very cooperative and friendly to one another. For example, I go out of my way to make sure all of my projects work on other OSes/DEs, and I am just as welcome in the PostmarketOS developer community as I am in the Mobian community as I am in the Mobile Fedora community. I personally consider quite a few of the pmOS devs to be my friend, as well as the Fedora devs I work with.

luca020400 5y ago
I've been doing CyanogenMod for years, and since become a director at LineageOS. I've never heard anything akin to " malicious organization/project that's involved in spreading misinformation about GrapheneOS and harassing our developers" and if I were I'd have no problem with going around smacking some of my friends ( some I've known since ~2014 ) that work on the project. Nowadays most of custom ROM developers are chill and there's really nothing like the old "wars", everyone is "friend" with other projects. The issues arise with these people that you called "evangelists", and I couldn't agree more. It seems like a cult. And it's always on these "super" security/privacy oriented projects.
- kop316 5y ago
  > I've been doing CyanogenMod for years, and since become a director at LineageOS. Thank you for all the work you have contributed to. > I've never heard anything akin to " malicious organization/project that's involved in spreading misinformation about GrapheneOS and harassing our developers" and if I were I'd have no problem with going around smacking some of my friends ( some I've known since ~2014 ) that work on the project. That matches what I have seen with Mainline Linux devs. We all have our preferences, but we all have common goals in mind and want to help each other.
  - luca020400 5y ago
    Indeed, everyone works in its own way. Most on this scene started because people had obscene support by some OEM, so just for personal interest. But after a while you see the whole community behind it and you don't have much of a choice to start sharing your work and goals with other people.
lucideer 5y ago
This is just one example (linked below) but I've seen a fair bit of this type of behaviour just specifixally from the project founder/leader. There does seem to be a lot of other more level-headed folk involved with the project too however so not sure how insurmountable the problem is. https://github.com/Peter-Easton/GrapheneOS-Knowledge/issues/3#issuecomment-817075230 https://github.com/Peter-Easton/GrapheneOS-Knowledge/issues/...
joemazerino 5y ago
GrapheneOS attacks on other projects is well documented. They have went to the extent of trying to get a Monero community member removed by harassing them [1]. Techlore has documented some of the more nefarious actions [2]. GrapheneOS is currently involved in a dispute with CalyxOS as well. 1 - https://sethforprivacy.com/posts/community-drama-and-mobile-os/#grapheneos-community-members-organized-campaign-of-harassment-slander-and-brigading https://sethforprivacy.com/posts/community-drama-and-mobile-... 2 - https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Dx7CZ-2Bajg https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Dx7CZ-2Bajg
- deep_breath 5y ago
  Two people just collected stuff said by others out of context does not make it documentation of anything.
  - joemazerino 5y ago
    It sure does -- and your throwaway status is suspect.
commoner 5y ago
I have been a proponent of GrapheneOS, but seeing this on HN has made me uneasy: - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28095033 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28095033 (Log in to HN and enable "showdead" in your HN profile to see all comments) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28095108 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28095108 At that time, I wasn't entirely sure what was going on, but I did some more research and found this: - https://github.com/AOSPAlliance/README/commit/cbd2a95cba7c2af13d397f3b2057cb05006e110f https://github.com/AOSPAlliance/README/commit/cbd2a95cba7c2a... - https://web.archive.org/web/20210403012439/https://freenode.logbot.info/AOSPAlliance/20201211 https://web.archive.org/web/20210403012439/https://freenode.... This kind of behavior is limiting the success of GrapheneOS, and there needs to be a Linus-style intervention (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18000698 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18000698) to get the project back on good terms with the rest of the Android ROM community.
- atatatat 5y ago
  I doubt that Micay gives a good goddamn about the rest of the Android "ROM" scene — the ones that can rarely allow a secure boot, these are the ones we're referencing, right?
  - kop316 5y ago
    That's fine, the project devs of GrapheneOS (I assume that's who Micay is?) can do what they please, but when your comments adds needless disparaging remarks, it outlines the exact point I made above. When I see this, I really don't want to be associated with such a community, nor would I recommend it to anyone else.
    - atatatat 5y ago
      > disparaging remarks Mentioning a project breaking the security model of the project they're kang'ing is disparaging? Have a good day, there.
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
Gargyle 5y ago
Micay seems to be the productive nerd that got ripped off by the businessman. Never had such an extremely solid android rom. But Anuprita and a bunch of other manchildren trying to save from misinformation by flak-ing James (the business guy) lets them look bad. Imo this is a case of asperger + frustration.
- kop316 5y ago
  Sorry, I don't know who any of these people are, so it makes your comment very confusing.
strcat 5y ago
> I can't tell if they are developers or not, but I have seen what I'll refer to as "evangelists" of GrapheneOS spread a lot of misinformation about LineageOS and Mainline Linux phones, then when ignore technical arguments and block people who raise those technical arguments. This is completely untrue and is you trying to spin your regular persistent attacks on us into us doing something wrong. We aren't spreading any misinformation about LineageOS. AOSP can use mainline Linux kernels and traditional Linux distributions often use Android kernels so there's another an example of muddying the waters. > After seeing it a few times, it really makes me uneasy to use GrapheneOS. Heck, I switched back to LineageOS because of this behavior. It's you engaging in this behavior. > In the Linux phone community, we all have our preferences (I use Mobian and am a Mobian Dev), but we are very cooperative and friendly to one another. For example, I go out of my way to make sure all of my projects work on other OSes/DEs, and I am just as welcome in the PostmarketOS developer community as I am in the Mobian community as I am in the Mobile Fedora community. I personally consider quite a few of the pmOS devs to be my friend, as well as the Fedora devs I work with. You're acknowledging right here that you're a developer in those projects and here you are acting maliciously towards GrapheneOS with falsified claims about it. That's pretty unfortunate. It's pretty sad that you folks show up whenever it's mentioned to attack it. We'll be contacting those projects about your behavior here and elsewhere. We do not consider it to be those projects doing something wrong and expect that the others involved in them don't want you spreading FUD about GrapheneOS and starting a conflict with it.
- kop316 5y ago
  Heh, youre actually the founder? https://github.com/thestinger https://github.com/thestinger https://daniel.micay.dev/ https://daniel.micay.dev/ I'm surprised to be honest.
deep_breath 5y ago
Your statements are quite general and not much substance can be attributed to it unless you give some solid evidence as to why or what was said of LineageOS/Linux that hurt your feelings. If you are merely referring to the discussions in the room about the shortcomings of the above mentioned OS/Kernel security-wise then this is just a reflection of the frustration people face with security in Linux. You didn't even bother to add some relevant quotes. And I dont know, but we rarely talk about LineageOS and maybe someone said something about it in a disparaging way when someone new to the room must have brought up the topic of lineage OS and privacy/security. I dont know how Graphene OS has anything to do with your judgement of the developers behavior. He is quiet a reasonable person ,helps people out a lot. Anyone who comes to the matrix room with genuine interest knows that. There are of course trouble-makers who get themselves banned and then go around the internet spreading ill-will. I dont know of anyone who was blocked because they just made technical arguments about linux phones and got blocked. It always comes down to someone shilling some linux phone, calling it more secure and distracting everyone in the room with weird conspiratorial messages. So if you know of a situation where you or anyone you know were merely making technical points about linux phones/mainline linux in some argument about some aspect of those projects and someone blocked you or accosted you please tell us here. We take care that we act in a civil manner in the room and try to have fruitful rational discussions and do not tolerate hot-blooded-loud mouthed "evangelists"
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- kop316 5y ago
  Two things: - You seemed to make an account specifically to respond to me. Is there a reason you did that? - I debated if i wanted to call out specific instances or not, but many of them are personal ones and I didn't want to dox anyone. Based on the replies I have gotten, it seems unnecessary to do it now.

by kop316 5y ago

luca020400 5y ago

I've been doing CyanogenMod for years, and since become a director at LineageOS. I've never heard anything akin to " malicious organization/project that's involved in spreading misinformation about GrapheneOS and harassing our developers" and if I were I'd have no problem with going around smacking some of my friends ( some I've known since ~2014 ) that work on the project. Nowadays most of custom ROM developers are chill and there's really nothing like the old "wars", everyone is "friend" with other projects. The issues arise with these people that you called "evangelists", and I couldn't agree more. It seems like a cult. And it's always on these "super" security/privacy oriented projects.

kop316 5y ago
> I've been doing CyanogenMod for years, and since become a director at LineageOS. Thank you for all the work you have contributed to. > I've never heard anything akin to " malicious organization/project that's involved in spreading misinformation about GrapheneOS and harassing our developers" and if I were I'd have no problem with going around smacking some of my friends ( some I've known since ~2014 ) that work on the project. That matches what I have seen with Mainline Linux devs. We all have our preferences, but we all have common goals in mind and want to help each other.
- luca020400 5y ago
  Indeed, everyone works in its own way. Most on this scene started because people had obscene support by some OEM, so just for personal interest. But after a while you see the whole community behind it and you don't have much of a choice to start sharing your work and goals with other people.

lucideer 5y ago

This is just one example (linked below) but I've seen a fair bit of this type of behaviour just specifixally from the project founder/leader. There does seem to be a lot of other more level-headed folk involved with the project too however so not sure how insurmountable the problem is. https://github.com/Peter-Easton/GrapheneOS-Knowledge/issues/3#issuecomment-817075230 https://github.com/Peter-Easton/GrapheneOS-Knowledge/issues/...

joemazerino 5y ago

GrapheneOS attacks on other projects is well documented. They have went to the extent of trying to get a Monero community member removed by harassing them [1]. Techlore has documented some of the more nefarious actions [2]. GrapheneOS is currently involved in a dispute with CalyxOS as well. 1 - https://sethforprivacy.com/posts/community-drama-and-mobile-os/#grapheneos-community-members-organized-campaign-of-harassment-slander-and-brigading https://sethforprivacy.com/posts/community-drama-and-mobile-... 2 - https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Dx7CZ-2Bajg https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Dx7CZ-2Bajg

deep_breath 5y ago
Two people just collected stuff said by others out of context does not make it documentation of anything.
- joemazerino 5y ago
  It sure does -- and your throwaway status is suspect.

commoner 5y ago

I have been a proponent of GrapheneOS, but seeing this on HN has made me uneasy: - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28095033 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28095033 (Log in to HN and enable "showdead" in your HN profile to see all comments) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28095108 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28095108 At that time, I wasn't entirely sure what was going on, but I did some more research and found this: - https://github.com/AOSPAlliance/README/commit/cbd2a95cba7c2af13d397f3b2057cb05006e110f https://github.com/AOSPAlliance/README/commit/cbd2a95cba7c2a... - https://web.archive.org/web/20210403012439/https://freenode.logbot.info/AOSPAlliance/20201211 https://web.archive.org/web/20210403012439/https://freenode.... This kind of behavior is limiting the success of GrapheneOS, and there needs to be a Linus-style intervention (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18000698 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18000698) to get the project back on good terms with the rest of the Android ROM community.

atatatat 5y ago
I doubt that Micay gives a good goddamn about the rest of the Android "ROM" scene — the ones that can rarely allow a secure boot, these are the ones we're referencing, right?
- kop316 5y ago
  That's fine, the project devs of GrapheneOS (I assume that's who Micay is?) can do what they please, but when your comments adds needless disparaging remarks, it outlines the exact point I made above. When I see this, I really don't want to be associated with such a community, nor would I recommend it to anyone else.
  - atatatat 5y ago
    > disparaging remarks Mentioning a project breaking the security model of the project they're kang'ing is disparaging? Have a good day, there.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]

Gargyle 5y ago

Micay seems to be the productive nerd that got ripped off by the businessman. Never had such an extremely solid android rom. But Anuprita and a bunch of other manchildren trying to save from misinformation by flak-ing James (the business guy) lets them look bad. Imo this is a case of asperger + frustration.

kop316 5y ago
Sorry, I don't know who any of these people are, so it makes your comment very confusing.

strcat 5y ago

> I can't tell if they are developers or not, but I have seen what I'll refer to as "evangelists" of GrapheneOS spread a lot of misinformation about LineageOS and Mainline Linux phones, then when ignore technical arguments and block people who raise those technical arguments. This is completely untrue and is you trying to spin your regular persistent attacks on us into us doing something wrong. We aren't spreading any misinformation about LineageOS. AOSP can use mainline Linux kernels and traditional Linux distributions often use Android kernels so there's another an example of muddying the waters. > After seeing it a few times, it really makes me uneasy to use GrapheneOS. Heck, I switched back to LineageOS because of this behavior. It's you engaging in this behavior. > In the Linux phone community, we all have our preferences (I use Mobian and am a Mobian Dev), but we are very cooperative and friendly to one another. For example, I go out of my way to make sure all of my projects work on other OSes/DEs, and I am just as welcome in the PostmarketOS developer community as I am in the Mobian community as I am in the Mobile Fedora community. I personally consider quite a few of the pmOS devs to be my friend, as well as the Fedora devs I work with. You're acknowledging right here that you're a developer in those projects and here you are acting maliciously towards GrapheneOS with falsified claims about it. That's pretty unfortunate. It's pretty sad that you folks show up whenever it's mentioned to attack it. We'll be contacting those projects about your behavior here and elsewhere. We do not consider it to be those projects doing something wrong and expect that the others involved in them don't want you spreading FUD about GrapheneOS and starting a conflict with it.

kop316 5y ago
Heh, youre actually the founder? https://github.com/thestinger https://github.com/thestinger https://daniel.micay.dev/ https://daniel.micay.dev/ I'm surprised to be honest.

deep_breath 5y ago

Your statements are quite general and not much substance can be attributed to it unless you give some solid evidence as to why or what was said of LineageOS/Linux that hurt your feelings. If you are merely referring to the discussions in the room about the shortcomings of the above mentioned OS/Kernel security-wise then this is just a reflection of the frustration people face with security in Linux. You didn't even bother to add some relevant quotes. And I dont know, but we rarely talk about LineageOS and maybe someone said something about it in a disparaging way when someone new to the room must have brought up the topic of lineage OS and privacy/security. I dont know how Graphene OS has anything to do with your judgement of the developers behavior. He is quiet a reasonable person ,helps people out a lot. Anyone who comes to the matrix room with genuine interest knows that. There are of course trouble-makers who get themselves banned and then go around the internet spreading ill-will. I dont know of anyone who was blocked because they just made technical arguments about linux phones and got blocked. It always comes down to someone shilling some linux phone, calling it more secure and distracting everyone in the room with weird conspiratorial messages. So if you know of a situation where you or anyone you know were merely making technical points about linux phones/mainline linux in some argument about some aspect of those projects and someone blocked you or accosted you please tell us here. We take care that we act in a civil manner in the room and try to have fruitful rational discussions and do not tolerate hot-blooded-loud mouthed "evangelists"

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
kop316 5y ago
Two things: - You seemed to make an account specifically to respond to me. Is there a reason you did that? - I debated if i wanted to call out specific instances or not, but many of them are personal ones and I didn't want to dox anyone. Based on the replies I have gotten, it seems unnecessary to do it now.