4 ms·

I would be against your shirt, not because I am against Trump. I think wearing your own country‘s flag or mainstream political symbols is already questionable.

I would be against your shirt, not because I am against Trump. I think wearing your own country‘s flag or mainstream political symbols is already questionable. I think you should not define yourself through a group. It might be cute for non-dominant sports teams or cities. Walking around with Bayern Munich/Barcelona/I <3 NY and the like when you are not even close to those cities, just makes you look like a weak person following the currently popular kids. Wearing US symbols in Europe is outright stupid. You are not part of that group. You are effectively marketing for a competitor of a group you cannot switch. It is beyond me why you would put symbols of the leading military power into pop-culture. Sounds pretty Orwellian to me.

the-dude 5y ago
Well, apparently the shirt works as well online as offline. People immediately, spontanously spill their guts about their convictions. Thanks for sharing.
- allendoerfer 5y ago
  Upvoted you, because I get how my point might have come across, even though you just described how online forums work.
  - the-dude 5y ago
    > just described how online forums work. I guess you have a point here, because you wouldn't call me weak in my face. To respond to your term from a sibling comment, about arbitrarily join winning teams : I got and wore the Trump shirt well before his election. Furthermore, what is wrong about being a Barcelona supporter from Germany ( for example ) if you just like and adore their style / spiel ?
    - allendoerfer 5y ago
      I would have put you more in the third category of American symbolism. So if any, I called wearing it stupid, not weak. But even there it does not fit perfectly. I do not think wearing MAGA in Europe is in any way joining a popular group. Becoming a Barcelona supporter in recent times is definitely joining the winning team. I think there is a difference between recognizing someone’s qualities and actually joining a movement. Just buying a Barca shirt to me is not the same level as actually being a member of a club, watching the home-games live, because that’s where your community is at. It feels more like wearing a Rolling Stones shirt without ever having visited a concert. And that to me just seems like blindly following a popular group. (I make pointed arguments, obviously there are exceptions to everything.)
      - the-dude 5y ago
        > I called wearing it stupid, not weak. On a forum. And it is indeed not joining a popular group, it is the exact opposite. Because most of the people not wearing the shirt ( AFAIK, I am the only one in town ), are actually in the anti-Trump camp to the point some would like to harass me. Regarding Barcelona : I know nothing about football or the club, but I think you can call yourself a proper fan for whatever reason you like, follow all their matches online ( think WFH but for sports ) and want to wear the shirt. I find it odd you paint whole groups of people you don't know as stupid, weak and silly.
        allendoerfer 5y ago
        You keep insisting, that I am calling people names. I am describing my opinions on wearing group symbols and am trying to clarify, why I think so. Smart people can do stuff that I think of as stupid. It is obvious that everybody can call themselves a fan if they like too. I would ask: If there is no actual commitment to a group, why would you even want to show your participation?
inglor_cz 5y ago
"I think you should not define yourself through a group." Humans have a lot of partial sub-identities. Few of us are so one-dimensional that they would define themselves through membership in a group. Wearing your national symbols from time to time does not mean that you are a mindless cog in a nationalist machine. This seems to me a particularly German problem/fear; educated Germans seem to be extra anxious not to be perceived as nationalistic under any circumstances. The same sentiment exists among intellectuals in other countries, too , but is nowhere near as strong. For example, Poles, Danes or Swiss seem to enjoy their national identity quite a bit more. Of course, I know the general history that resulted in this situation, but I must ask myself if the pendulum of opinions hasn't swung too far to the other side in Germany.
- allendoerfer 5y ago
  > For example, Poles, Danes or Swiss seem to enjoy their national identity quite a bit more. So a country with a nationalistic government, which is in constant trouble with the EU regarding rule of law, a tiny country with 5 million inhabitants and a country exactly famous for not being part of any groups. But I do get your point. France would have worked, too. I think there is a time and a place to feel part of a group, which is not bad in itself. What I do not like is advertising for foreign groups or arbitrarily joining winning teams.

the-dude 5y ago

Well, apparently the shirt works as well online as offline. People immediately, spontanously spill their guts about their convictions. Thanks for sharing.

allendoerfer 5y ago
Upvoted you, because I get how my point might have come across, even though you just described how online forums work.
- the-dude 5y ago
  > just described how online forums work. I guess you have a point here, because you wouldn't call me weak in my face. To respond to your term from a sibling comment, about arbitrarily join winning teams : I got and wore the Trump shirt well before his election. Furthermore, what is wrong about being a Barcelona supporter from Germany ( for example ) if you just like and adore their style / spiel ?
  - allendoerfer 5y ago
    I would have put you more in the third category of American symbolism. So if any, I called wearing it stupid, not weak. But even there it does not fit perfectly. I do not think wearing MAGA in Europe is in any way joining a popular group. Becoming a Barcelona supporter in recent times is definitely joining the winning team. I think there is a difference between recognizing someone’s qualities and actually joining a movement. Just buying a Barca shirt to me is not the same level as actually being a member of a club, watching the home-games live, because that’s where your community is at. It feels more like wearing a Rolling Stones shirt without ever having visited a concert. And that to me just seems like blindly following a popular group. (I make pointed arguments, obviously there are exceptions to everything.)
    - the-dude 5y ago
      > I called wearing it stupid, not weak. On a forum. And it is indeed not joining a popular group, it is the exact opposite. Because most of the people not wearing the shirt ( AFAIK, I am the only one in town ), are actually in the anti-Trump camp to the point some would like to harass me. Regarding Barcelona : I know nothing about football or the club, but I think you can call yourself a proper fan for whatever reason you like, follow all their matches online ( think WFH but for sports ) and want to wear the shirt. I find it odd you paint whole groups of people you don't know as stupid, weak and silly.
      - allendoerfer 5y ago
        You keep insisting, that I am calling people names. I am describing my opinions on wearing group symbols and am trying to clarify, why I think so. Smart people can do stuff that I think of as stupid. It is obvious that everybody can call themselves a fan if they like too. I would ask: If there is no actual commitment to a group, why would you even want to show your participation?

inglor_cz 5y ago

"I think you should not define yourself through a group." Humans have a lot of partial sub-identities. Few of us are so one-dimensional that they would define themselves through membership in a group. Wearing your national symbols from time to time does not mean that you are a mindless cog in a nationalist machine. This seems to me a particularly German problem/fear; educated Germans seem to be extra anxious not to be perceived as nationalistic under any circumstances. The same sentiment exists among intellectuals in other countries, too , but is nowhere near as strong. For example, Poles, Danes or Swiss seem to enjoy their national identity quite a bit more. Of course, I know the general history that resulted in this situation, but I must ask myself if the pendulum of opinions hasn't swung too far to the other side in Germany.

allendoerfer 5y ago
> For example, Poles, Danes or Swiss seem to enjoy their national identity quite a bit more. So a country with a nationalistic government, which is in constant trouble with the EU regarding rule of law, a tiny country with 5 million inhabitants and a country exactly famous for not being part of any groups. But I do get your point. France would have worked, too. I think there is a time and a place to feel part of a group, which is not bad in itself. What I do not like is advertising for foreign groups or arbitrarily joining winning teams.