4 ms·

You risk being murdered and your business put on fire? Stop romanticizing it. Yes, some states started from violent protection based tribes (not all of them).

You risk being murdered and your business put on fire? Stop romanticizing it. Yes, some states started from violent protection based tribes (not all of them). This was not taxation. There were/are states and actual laws in the places Bedouin extort people for money under threat of violence. They provided no service in return execpt the promise that they themselves would not harm you. Absolutely no, extorting "protection" money is not OK and it is not taxation.

erklik 5y ago
> You risk being murdered and your business put on fire? I mean he literally didn't say that. He said that he risks being put in prison. In general, that's in effect the same. You lose your property, and largely fall into cycles of institutionalized crime. Although, I don't really agree with it since I don't see many modern countries putting people in long term prison for just taxation issues.
- amitport 5y ago
  I know he didn't say that. I tried to say (perhaps unsuccessfully) That this is a different between taxes and "protection" by crime groups. Rubbers like the one we're discussing shot you where you stand there is no "system" or "state" or "prison".
  - LightG 5y ago
    The difference is marginal in my view. The only difference now is that they wear suits and bleed you slowly instead of putting you out of your misery with one shot. Time for a coffee.
    - amitport 5y ago
      State taxes and violent robberies. Not a marginal difference, but I give up. You need to discuss the matter with people who went through the latter.
      - coldtea 5y ago
        You might also want to discuss the matter with people who went through the former...
        jtbayly 5y ago
        Like… everybody? I pay taxes. Seems pretty different to me.
        throwaway0a5e 5y ago
        The difference is obfuscation and normalization. At the end of the day they're still taking your resources under threat of violence.
        jtbayly 5y ago
        The commenter was instructed to ask people who have actually paid taxes. My point is that everyone does. I’m a valid person to ask my experience. It’s not scary. I doubt anybody who has been mugged would say the same.
        coldtea 5y ago
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome
coldtea 5y ago
>You risk being murdered and your business put on fire? Small difference.
throwaway0a5e 5y ago
> You risk being murdered and your business put on fire? Yeah. Depending on the details of how you go about not paying your taxes I can see it happening. Heck, even if you pay your taxes the tax men might do it to you anyway if you do the kind of business they don't like they think you're unsympathetic enough and can get some political brownie points for screwing you[0](though thankfully this is very rare). > There were/are states and actual laws What makes them "actual laws". Surely the Bedouin have customs regarding the right and wrong amounts to charge, methods of payment, penalties for non-payment, etc, etc and those who work outside of those customs would be subject to penalty as a corrupt or rogue agent of the state would be in a "normal" state. [0] https://i.redd.it/y57gwp4y81q01.jpg https://i.redd.it/y57gwp4y81q01.jpg Just because they didn't write it down in legalese doesn't mean it's not a law in practical terms.
gitanovic 5y ago
I think that the common ground is the non-optionality. From what I can understand the point here is that you cannot choose not to pay

erklik 5y ago

> You risk being murdered and your business put on fire? I mean he literally didn't say that. He said that he risks being put in prison. In general, that's in effect the same. You lose your property, and largely fall into cycles of institutionalized crime. Although, I don't really agree with it since I don't see many modern countries putting people in long term prison for just taxation issues.

amitport 5y ago
I know he didn't say that. I tried to say (perhaps unsuccessfully) That this is a different between taxes and "protection" by crime groups. Rubbers like the one we're discussing shot you where you stand there is no "system" or "state" or "prison".
- LightG 5y ago
  The difference is marginal in my view. The only difference now is that they wear suits and bleed you slowly instead of putting you out of your misery with one shot. Time for a coffee.
  - amitport 5y ago
    State taxes and violent robberies. Not a marginal difference, but I give up. You need to discuss the matter with people who went through the latter.
    - coldtea 5y ago
      You might also want to discuss the matter with people who went through the former...
      - jtbayly 5y ago
        Like… everybody? I pay taxes. Seems pretty different to me.
        throwaway0a5e 5y ago
        The difference is obfuscation and normalization. At the end of the day they're still taking your resources under threat of violence.
        jtbayly 5y ago
        The commenter was instructed to ask people who have actually paid taxes. My point is that everyone does. I’m a valid person to ask my experience. It’s not scary. I doubt anybody who has been mugged would say the same.
        coldtea 5y ago
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome

coldtea 5y ago

>You risk being murdered and your business put on fire? Small difference.

throwaway0a5e 5y ago

> You risk being murdered and your business put on fire? Yeah. Depending on the details of how you go about not paying your taxes I can see it happening. Heck, even if you pay your taxes the tax men might do it to you anyway if you do the kind of business they don't like they think you're unsympathetic enough and can get some political brownie points for screwing you[0](though thankfully this is very rare). > There were/are states and actual laws What makes them "actual laws". Surely the Bedouin have customs regarding the right and wrong amounts to charge, methods of payment, penalties for non-payment, etc, etc and those who work outside of those customs would be subject to penalty as a corrupt or rogue agent of the state would be in a "normal" state. [0] https://i.redd.it/y57gwp4y81q01.jpg https://i.redd.it/y57gwp4y81q01.jpg Just because they didn't write it down in legalese doesn't mean it's not a law in practical terms.

gitanovic 5y ago

I think that the common ground is the non-optionality. From what I can understand the point here is that you cannot choose not to pay