6 ms·

If I don’t pay my countries taxes, I risk being put into prison. Doesn’t sound that much different tbh.

by wsc981 5y ago

amitport 5y ago
You risk being murdered and your business put on fire? Stop romanticizing it. Yes, some states started from violent protection based tribes (not all of them). This was not taxation. There were/are states and actual laws in the places Bedouin extort people for money under threat of violence. They provided no service in return execpt the promise that they themselves would not harm you. Absolutely no, extorting "protection" money is not OK and it is not taxation.
- erklik 5y ago
  > You risk being murdered and your business put on fire? I mean he literally didn't say that. He said that he risks being put in prison. In general, that's in effect the same. You lose your property, and largely fall into cycles of institutionalized crime. Although, I don't really agree with it since I don't see many modern countries putting people in long term prison for just taxation issues.
  - amitport 5y ago
    I know he didn't say that. I tried to say (perhaps unsuccessfully) That this is a different between taxes and "protection" by crime groups. Rubbers like the one we're discussing shot you where you stand there is no "system" or "state" or "prison".
    - LightG 5y ago
      The difference is marginal in my view. The only difference now is that they wear suits and bleed you slowly instead of putting you out of your misery with one shot. Time for a coffee.
      - amitport 5y ago
        State taxes and violent robberies. Not a marginal difference, but I give up. You need to discuss the matter with people who went through the latter.
        coldtea 5y ago
        You might also want to discuss the matter with people who went through the former...
        jtbayly 5y ago
        Like… everybody? I pay taxes. Seems pretty different to me.
        throwaway0a5e 5y ago
        The difference is obfuscation and normalization. At the end of the day they're still taking your resources under threat of violence.
        jtbayly 5y ago
        The commenter was instructed to ask people who have actually paid taxes. My point is that everyone does. I’m a valid person to ask my experience. It’s not scary. I doubt anybody who has been mugged would say the same.
        coldtea 5y ago
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome
- coldtea 5y ago
  >You risk being murdered and your business put on fire? Small difference.
- throwaway0a5e 5y ago
  > You risk being murdered and your business put on fire? Yeah. Depending on the details of how you go about not paying your taxes I can see it happening. Heck, even if you pay your taxes the tax men might do it to you anyway if you do the kind of business they don't like they think you're unsympathetic enough and can get some political brownie points for screwing you[0](though thankfully this is very rare). > There were/are states and actual laws What makes them "actual laws". Surely the Bedouin have customs regarding the right and wrong amounts to charge, methods of payment, penalties for non-payment, etc, etc and those who work outside of those customs would be subject to penalty as a corrupt or rogue agent of the state would be in a "normal" state. [0] https://i.redd.it/y57gwp4y81q01.jpg https://i.redd.it/y57gwp4y81q01.jpg Just because they didn't write it down in legalese doesn't mean it's not a law in practical terms.
- gitanovic 5y ago
  I think that the common ground is the non-optionality. From what I can understand the point here is that you cannot choose not to pay
simonh 5y ago
On the other I'm guessing your country does actually provide a ton of services you benefit from every day. Transport and utility infrastructure, health services, social services, policing and justice systems that protect your personal and property rights, national security and defence, it's easy to take all of that for granted. If you live in a democracy, 'the government' is a consensus agreed by the people around you that you live amongst. The government is your family, neighbours, employer, all your fellow citizens. If you really don't like it vote, campaign, go into politics and change it. People do that.
- wsc981 5y ago
  I am of the opinion that income tax is immoral, but tax on consumption (VAT) is justified. Tax on property is justified as long as a base level is tax free, e.g. the first 500.000 USD in property (including pension funds, home, car, stocks). Also, i can support other taxes like tax on imported goods for example (to protect internal markets that are of importance to a countries well-being).
  - rat87 5y ago
    Seems like the income tax is more moral as it's a progressive tax. How is a consumption tax more moral?
    - wsc981 5y ago
      Because if people consume more, they would pay more and wealthier people generally consume more. The problem with income tax is that low income people risk being put in jail if they can't pay their taxes. And rich people can easily avoid income tax anyway (e.g. earn 1 USD a year from the job and get paid in stock or donate most income to a foundation that is in their own control). An extra tax on luxury goods (private airplanes, yachts) would also be ok by the way.
  - simonh 5y ago
    I don’t really buy the moral argument. The government regulates, facilitates and protects the economy in which you work and earn. It creates and acts to protect the value of the currency itself. The problem with consumption taxes is they can be bypassed in many ways, such as by spending your earnings abroad. I do think income taxes at higher brackets can be counter productive because they also can be bypassed in various ways, but that’s a practical matter not a moral one. I have links to China and I think the growing implementation and use of income tax in China is a good thing. I hope that it will give Chinese people a sense that they are personally funding government, and that therefore the government should be accountable to them, the people paying its way. As a citizen I feel a lot more of a direct connection between myself and responsibility for and accountability of government through the income taxes I pay than anything else. I’m proud of my contribution through income tax, but not so much for things like VAT.

If I don’t pay my countries taxes, I risk being put into prison. Doesn’t sound that much different tbh.

by wsc981 5y ago

If I don’t pay my countries taxes, I risk being put into prison. Doesn’t sound that much different tbh.

You risk being murdered and your business put on fire? Stop romanticizing it. Yes, some states started from violent protection based tribes (not all of them). This was not taxation. There were/are states and actual laws in the places Bedouin extort people for money under threat of violence. They provided no service in return execpt the promise that they themselves would not harm you. Absolutely no, extorting "protection" money is not OK and it is not taxation.

erklik 5y ago
> You risk being murdered and your business put on fire? I mean he literally didn't say that. He said that he risks being put in prison. In general, that's in effect the same. You lose your property, and largely fall into cycles of institutionalized crime. Although, I don't really agree with it since I don't see many modern countries putting people in long term prison for just taxation issues.
- amitport 5y ago
  I know he didn't say that. I tried to say (perhaps unsuccessfully) That this is a different between taxes and "protection" by crime groups. Rubbers like the one we're discussing shot you where you stand there is no "system" or "state" or "prison".
  - LightG 5y ago
    The difference is marginal in my view. The only difference now is that they wear suits and bleed you slowly instead of putting you out of your misery with one shot. Time for a coffee.
    - amitport 5y ago
      State taxes and violent robberies. Not a marginal difference, but I give up. You need to discuss the matter with people who went through the latter.
      - coldtea 5y ago
        You might also want to discuss the matter with people who went through the former...
        jtbayly 5y ago
        Like… everybody? I pay taxes. Seems pretty different to me.
        throwaway0a5e 5y ago
        The difference is obfuscation and normalization. At the end of the day they're still taking your resources under threat of violence.
        jtbayly 5y ago
        The commenter was instructed to ask people who have actually paid taxes. My point is that everyone does. I’m a valid person to ask my experience. It’s not scary. I doubt anybody who has been mugged would say the same.
        coldtea 5y ago
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome
coldtea 5y ago
>You risk being murdered and your business put on fire? Small difference.
throwaway0a5e 5y ago
> You risk being murdered and your business put on fire? Yeah. Depending on the details of how you go about not paying your taxes I can see it happening. Heck, even if you pay your taxes the tax men might do it to you anyway if you do the kind of business they don't like they think you're unsympathetic enough and can get some political brownie points for screwing you[0](though thankfully this is very rare). > There were/are states and actual laws What makes them "actual laws". Surely the Bedouin have customs regarding the right and wrong amounts to charge, methods of payment, penalties for non-payment, etc, etc and those who work outside of those customs would be subject to penalty as a corrupt or rogue agent of the state would be in a "normal" state. [0] https://i.redd.it/y57gwp4y81q01.jpg https://i.redd.it/y57gwp4y81q01.jpg Just because they didn't write it down in legalese doesn't mean it's not a law in practical terms.
gitanovic 5y ago
I think that the common ground is the non-optionality. From what I can understand the point here is that you cannot choose not to pay

simonh 5y ago

On the other I'm guessing your country does actually provide a ton of services you benefit from every day. Transport and utility infrastructure, health services, social services, policing and justice systems that protect your personal and property rights, national security and defence, it's easy to take all of that for granted. If you live in a democracy, 'the government' is a consensus agreed by the people around you that you live amongst. The government is your family, neighbours, employer, all your fellow citizens. If you really don't like it vote, campaign, go into politics and change it. People do that.

wsc981 5y ago
I am of the opinion that income tax is immoral, but tax on consumption (VAT) is justified. Tax on property is justified as long as a base level is tax free, e.g. the first 500.000 USD in property (including pension funds, home, car, stocks). Also, i can support other taxes like tax on imported goods for example (to protect internal markets that are of importance to a countries well-being).
- rat87 5y ago
  Seems like the income tax is more moral as it's a progressive tax. How is a consumption tax more moral?
  - wsc981 5y ago
    Because if people consume more, they would pay more and wealthier people generally consume more. The problem with income tax is that low income people risk being put in jail if they can't pay their taxes. And rich people can easily avoid income tax anyway (e.g. earn 1 USD a year from the job and get paid in stock or donate most income to a foundation that is in their own control). An extra tax on luxury goods (private airplanes, yachts) would also be ok by the way.
- simonh 5y ago
  I don’t really buy the moral argument. The government regulates, facilitates and protects the economy in which you work and earn. It creates and acts to protect the value of the currency itself. The problem with consumption taxes is they can be bypassed in many ways, such as by spending your earnings abroad. I do think income taxes at higher brackets can be counter productive because they also can be bypassed in various ways, but that’s a practical matter not a moral one. I have links to China and I think the growing implementation and use of income tax in China is a good thing. I hope that it will give Chinese people a sense that they are personally funding government, and that therefore the government should be accountable to them, the people paying its way. As a citizen I feel a lot more of a direct connection between myself and responsibility for and accountability of government through the income taxes I pay than anything else. I’m proud of my contribution through income tax, but not so much for things like VAT.