6 ms·

Great post, as usual. And agree with almost everything except this: > You can rent a decent place in a cool part of town on a typical startup salary. "Decent"

Great post, as usual. And agree with almost everything except this: > You can rent a decent place in a cool part of town on a typical startup salary. "Decent" and "typical" are open for interpretation, but I can tell that for most interpreters I know the expression above evaluates to False. :)

deleted 15y ago
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tomkarlo 15y ago
This... I'm originally from New York, and I know lots of good engineers who grew up there, but quickly realized that you don't make anything more for working in New York versus San Francisco, Austin, or Denver. Yes, you can afford a place in Manhattan on an engineer's salary. But it's going to be too small for a family, and if you want a bigger place you're going to need to do a long commute. Compare that with other cities where a well-paid software engineer is at the top end of the income ladder and can rent out a full house for what they'd pay for a 2-bedroom in NY. (And yes, it's even a lot more expensive than SF. I've looked at apartments in both cities - while rents in SF are comparable to New York, you're still generally getting a much larger place for the same price. That matters if you have kids.) Brooklyn and Queens are nice (if not that much cheaper for the areas near Manhattan.) But if working in New York means you have to live 40 mins outside of Manhattan, or in Hoboken / NJ, what's the point of being in NY? Might as well be in Denver with a 4000 sq ft house. It's unlikely that NY rents are going to drop a lot. If startups in NY want to attract more top talent, they're going to have to pay significantly more than startups in cheaper locales.
- jamesteow 15y ago
  Once you live in Brooklyn, it's possible to go days without having to enter the city. Plenty of awesome neighbourhoods in the BK (Greenpoint, Park Slope, Williamsburg, Brooklyn Heights, Bushwick, South Slope, DUMBO). I saw a LOT of young professionals with families in DUMBO/Park Slope/Brooklyn Heights. Certainly, if you're intent on living in the city, you'll pay a premium.
  - deleted 15y ago
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  - look_lookatme 15y ago
    Heh, days? If you work from home, try weeks.
    - tomkarlo 15y ago
      If you're going weeks without going into the city, why not live somewhere else instead of paying still really high rents (and yes, Brooklyn rents are still usually high compared to everywhere else but Manhattan.)
      - jamesteow 15y ago
        Because Brooklyn is awesome. Great parties, concert venues, cafes, restaurants, parks, bars, and lots and lots of super talented people ranging from musicians in Williamsburg to artists in Bushwick. NYC is more than just Manhattan. It's also easier to bike around. It's like thinking that the Bay Area is just San Francisco and that there is no reason to live in the BA if you don't go to SF.
        tomkarlo 15y ago
        I love Brooklyn, but the rents aren't _that_ different from Manhattan if you're in the "hot" areas. Maybe 30% cheaper, but not 70%. Yeah, there are 'low' rents if you're willing to live an hour outside the city, but if you're in Williamsburg or Park Slope, it's not really appreciably cheaper. And at least for software engineers, you probably _do_ make more in SF than NY, since it's a much more competitive job market for hiring a good software engineer. Just look at the wars that have been going on between FB and Google over hiring top talent. There's still nothing like that in NY.
        deleted 15y ago
        [deleted]
        15y ago
- hullo 15y ago
  I don't even know where to start here. Leaving aside that a huge chunk of Manhattan has a longer commute to Union Square than even New Jersey, 80% of the city doesn't live in Manhattan. If you fan out to the metro area, Manhattan falls to less than 9%. Do some of those people wake up some mornings wondering "what's the point", sure, but I promise you (or more specifically: other readers who haven't lived here) most don't.
  - tomkarlo 15y ago
    Even if you're living in the outer boroughs, or Jersey City, you're still probably paying more for what you get than you would if you lived in just about any other US city. I grew up in NY and lived there for 30 years, and when I look at rents in other cities I'm just dumbfounded how much cheaper it is. I'm in a very nice area of LA (still supposedly top 10 for cost) and I pay about 1/3 of what I would in Manhattan or Brooklyn for an equivalent place - and I commute less than 15 minutes to boot.
- deleted 15y ago
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dougws 15y ago
I'm about to start work at a New Yrk startup, and I have had no trouble finding a place to live on my probably average salary. Granted, I am single and don't have children, but I imagine that's not uncommon for startup employees.
- tomkarlo 15y ago
  It's not uncommon, but there are also lots of potential employees that have wives and kids (70% or more, I'd guess)... they're basically locked out unless they either want to do a long commute, or live in a tiny place. I've done a lot of hiring to companies both in NY and in other cities, and the "where will my kids play and where will they go to school" is a standard issue for anyone you're hiring over 30. The answer in New York is generally "somewhere a lot less nice than they would if you lived elsewhere." There's little denying that NY rents / housing prices are way out of line with average income at this point. I've heard bankers making $500K complain that they have to move to upstate to get a decent sized house.

deleted 15y ago

[deleted]

tomkarlo 15y ago

This... I'm originally from New York, and I know lots of good engineers who grew up there, but quickly realized that you don't make anything more for working in New York versus San Francisco, Austin, or Denver. Yes, you can afford a place in Manhattan on an engineer's salary. But it's going to be too small for a family, and if you want a bigger place you're going to need to do a long commute. Compare that with other cities where a well-paid software engineer is at the top end of the income ladder and can rent out a full house for what they'd pay for a 2-bedroom in NY. (And yes, it's even a lot more expensive than SF. I've looked at apartments in both cities - while rents in SF are comparable to New York, you're still generally getting a much larger place for the same price. That matters if you have kids.) Brooklyn and Queens are nice (if not that much cheaper for the areas near Manhattan.) But if working in New York means you have to live 40 mins outside of Manhattan, or in Hoboken / NJ, what's the point of being in NY? Might as well be in Denver with a 4000 sq ft house. It's unlikely that NY rents are going to drop a lot. If startups in NY want to attract more top talent, they're going to have to pay significantly more than startups in cheaper locales.

jamesteow 15y ago
Once you live in Brooklyn, it's possible to go days without having to enter the city. Plenty of awesome neighbourhoods in the BK (Greenpoint, Park Slope, Williamsburg, Brooklyn Heights, Bushwick, South Slope, DUMBO). I saw a LOT of young professionals with families in DUMBO/Park Slope/Brooklyn Heights. Certainly, if you're intent on living in the city, you'll pay a premium.
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
- look_lookatme 15y ago
  Heh, days? If you work from home, try weeks.
  - tomkarlo 15y ago
    If you're going weeks without going into the city, why not live somewhere else instead of paying still really high rents (and yes, Brooklyn rents are still usually high compared to everywhere else but Manhattan.)
    - jamesteow 15y ago
      Because Brooklyn is awesome. Great parties, concert venues, cafes, restaurants, parks, bars, and lots and lots of super talented people ranging from musicians in Williamsburg to artists in Bushwick. NYC is more than just Manhattan. It's also easier to bike around. It's like thinking that the Bay Area is just San Francisco and that there is no reason to live in the BA if you don't go to SF.
      - tomkarlo 15y ago
        I love Brooklyn, but the rents aren't _that_ different from Manhattan if you're in the "hot" areas. Maybe 30% cheaper, but not 70%. Yeah, there are 'low' rents if you're willing to live an hour outside the city, but if you're in Williamsburg or Park Slope, it's not really appreciably cheaper. And at least for software engineers, you probably _do_ make more in SF than NY, since it's a much more competitive job market for hiring a good software engineer. Just look at the wars that have been going on between FB and Google over hiring top talent. There's still nothing like that in NY.
        deleted 15y ago
        [deleted]
        15y ago
hullo 15y ago
I don't even know where to start here. Leaving aside that a huge chunk of Manhattan has a longer commute to Union Square than even New Jersey, 80% of the city doesn't live in Manhattan. If you fan out to the metro area, Manhattan falls to less than 9%. Do some of those people wake up some mornings wondering "what's the point", sure, but I promise you (or more specifically: other readers who haven't lived here) most don't.
- tomkarlo 15y ago
  Even if you're living in the outer boroughs, or Jersey City, you're still probably paying more for what you get than you would if you lived in just about any other US city. I grew up in NY and lived there for 30 years, and when I look at rents in other cities I'm just dumbfounded how much cheaper it is. I'm in a very nice area of LA (still supposedly top 10 for cost) and I pay about 1/3 of what I would in Manhattan or Brooklyn for an equivalent place - and I commute less than 15 minutes to boot.
deleted 15y ago
[deleted]

dougws 15y ago

I'm about to start work at a New Yrk startup, and I have had no trouble finding a place to live on my probably average salary. Granted, I am single and don't have children, but I imagine that's not uncommon for startup employees.

tomkarlo 15y ago
It's not uncommon, but there are also lots of potential employees that have wives and kids (70% or more, I'd guess)... they're basically locked out unless they either want to do a long commute, or live in a tiny place. I've done a lot of hiring to companies both in NY and in other cities, and the "where will my kids play and where will they go to school" is a standard issue for anyone you're hiring over 30. The answer in New York is generally "somewhere a lot less nice than they would if you lived elsewhere." There's little denying that NY rents / housing prices are way out of line with average income at this point. I've heard bankers making $500K complain that they have to move to upstate to get a decent sized house.