4 ms·

These comments frighten me. Seems like we are on the verge of a woke cultural revolution. No, violence is not the answer for poor personal decisions.

jrochkind1 5y ago
So... things you do that harm other people are a special class of "poor personal decisions". But I agree with you, violence is not the answer, or at least not a good answer, a very last resort answer -- but applies to sending people to prison too (prison is definitely a form of violence) for their "poor personal decisions" that harmed and killed others too, I hope you agree. But yeah, it also applies to the billionairres. On the other hand, the initial comment just said they "deserved" it, which is different than saying it should happen or we will make it happen. Although I'm reluctant to decide who "deserves" violence or not myself too. (And I hope you agree that this applies to deciding who "deserves" prison too...) I think it's safe to say that at the minimum they deserve, and ought to lose all the money they made in profit from the scheme that ruined and ended lives. Like that's just the minimum starting point for what they ought to do to make restitution to the families, communities, and society that they hurt, and to make sure they don't do similar again. That this bare minimum starting point isn't being met is why people are so mad.
- morpheos137 5y ago
  The thing is they did not do all bad. What the woke cannabis pushing media ignores is that millions of chronic pain patients had access to effective treatments that improved and in some cases saved their lives thanks to oxycotin because older opioids like morphine had already been stigmatised in previous moral panics.
  - jrochkind1 5y ago
    So that you suggest it was useful only because other opiates had been "stigmatized" is telling. But anyway, they could have done all that good without the despicable practices they used to ensure that it got over-prescribed with under-awareness of it's dangers. Those were in no way necessary for supplying a useful pain relief drug. Those things were only about greed and lack of concern for who it hurt, not some kind of necessary collateral damage of trying to do good. Nobody that does harm is without some redeeming qualities. (Not anyone we send to prison either). But those who do serious harm need to make restitution and repair for it. That starts, just starts, with giving up the fruits of that harm.
  - dillondoyle 5y ago
    I don't think that's the case, unless you go back many decades. Purdue was in part so effective because they spent millions 'educating' (and bribing) doctors and making up a '5th vital sign' in order to push huge quantities of drugs. This was on purpose. Those face in pain posters you see still originally came from Purdue. This always comes up in these threads, that perhaps we've swung too far in the direction of limiting access to pain meds for legit patients. Which definitely has merit. But that doesn't take away from what Sacklers and Kappor et al did. from my understanding long term prescription of opiates in modern medicine wasn't really a thing before Purdue's marketing (and still isn't outside of late stage cancer in most countries). So that's what I was getting at in responding to 'other opiates having been stigmatized in previous moral panics,' I think you'd have to go back to prohibition to find a similar time of heavy long term use 'medically'
akdor1154 5y ago
The worst bit is some of it is quite-likely Russian destabilizing astroturfing. Stoking a class war would be absolutely in scope for this stuff. - https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/10/28/its-not-easy-spot-disinformation-twitter-heres-what-we-learned-political-astroturfing-campaigns/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/10/28/its-not-e... - https://firstmonday.org/ojs/index.php/fm/article/download/10801/9723 https://firstmonday.org/ojs/index.php/fm/article/download/10...
aidenn0 5y ago
Whether or not violence is the answer, it seems inevitable if the trend of unequal outcomes continues on the trajectory it has been for the past 40 years. If the wealthy were as smart as they think they are, they would get behind some form of redistribution just out of a "Bread and Circuses" self-interest plan.
oakpond 5y ago
It is really strange that this comment has more downvotes than the parent comment.

jrochkind1 5y ago

So... things you do that harm other people are a special class of "poor personal decisions". But I agree with you, violence is not the answer, or at least not a good answer, a very last resort answer -- but applies to sending people to prison too (prison is definitely a form of violence) for their "poor personal decisions" that harmed and killed others too, I hope you agree. But yeah, it also applies to the billionairres. On the other hand, the initial comment just said they "deserved" it, which is different than saying it should happen or we will make it happen. Although I'm reluctant to decide who "deserves" violence or not myself too. (And I hope you agree that this applies to deciding who "deserves" prison too...) I think it's safe to say that at the minimum they deserve, and ought to lose all the money they made in profit from the scheme that ruined and ended lives. Like that's just the minimum starting point for what they ought to do to make restitution to the families, communities, and society that they hurt, and to make sure they don't do similar again. That this bare minimum starting point isn't being met is why people are so mad.

morpheos137 5y ago
The thing is they did not do all bad. What the woke cannabis pushing media ignores is that millions of chronic pain patients had access to effective treatments that improved and in some cases saved their lives thanks to oxycotin because older opioids like morphine had already been stigmatised in previous moral panics.
- jrochkind1 5y ago
  So that you suggest it was useful only because other opiates had been "stigmatized" is telling. But anyway, they could have done all that good without the despicable practices they used to ensure that it got over-prescribed with under-awareness of it's dangers. Those were in no way necessary for supplying a useful pain relief drug. Those things were only about greed and lack of concern for who it hurt, not some kind of necessary collateral damage of trying to do good. Nobody that does harm is without some redeeming qualities. (Not anyone we send to prison either). But those who do serious harm need to make restitution and repair for it. That starts, just starts, with giving up the fruits of that harm.
- dillondoyle 5y ago
  I don't think that's the case, unless you go back many decades. Purdue was in part so effective because they spent millions 'educating' (and bribing) doctors and making up a '5th vital sign' in order to push huge quantities of drugs. This was on purpose. Those face in pain posters you see still originally came from Purdue. This always comes up in these threads, that perhaps we've swung too far in the direction of limiting access to pain meds for legit patients. Which definitely has merit. But that doesn't take away from what Sacklers and Kappor et al did. from my understanding long term prescription of opiates in modern medicine wasn't really a thing before Purdue's marketing (and still isn't outside of late stage cancer in most countries). So that's what I was getting at in responding to 'other opiates having been stigmatized in previous moral panics,' I think you'd have to go back to prohibition to find a similar time of heavy long term use 'medically'

akdor1154 5y ago

The worst bit is some of it is quite-likely Russian destabilizing astroturfing. Stoking a class war would be absolutely in scope for this stuff. - https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/10/28/its-not-easy-spot-disinformation-twitter-heres-what-we-learned-political-astroturfing-campaigns/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/10/28/its-not-e... - https://firstmonday.org/ojs/index.php/fm/article/download/10801/9723 https://firstmonday.org/ojs/index.php/fm/article/download/10...

aidenn0 5y ago

Whether or not violence is the answer, it seems inevitable if the trend of unequal outcomes continues on the trajectory it has been for the past 40 years. If the wealthy were as smart as they think they are, they would get behind some form of redistribution just out of a "Bread and Circuses" self-interest plan.

oakpond 5y ago

It is really strange that this comment has more downvotes than the parent comment.