4 ms·

I lack the background on biology, just a layperson take. > Why should I take a vaccine, when it is now known that vaccinated people can still spread the virus,

I lack the background on biology, just a layperson take. > Why should I take a vaccine, when it is now known that vaccinated people can still spread the virus, there's an almost neglible chance of side effect, and with no information about possible long-term side effect. There's unknowns about the long-term effects of infection, too. Several viral infections result in prolonged symptoms or decades-later re-emergence. Bottom line IMO - there's little/no treatment for the infection resulting from this virus. So the best solution medicine can offer is the vaccine. Safe vaccines have been designed and administered before, so I hope this is among the many safe vaccines. We know it's effective at mitigating symptoms and we know it's effective at reducing the spread. I think taking the vaccine is the net least risk, but you're right that there's stuff that we just don't know.

polote 5y ago
So it just doesn't give any benefit. Reducing the risk of something which is already close to zero, is still 0. If we follow your argument, why not take the vaccine ten times ? The excess mortality of people under 49 years in a country like france is zero in 2020 [0]. About long term effects of infections. Well the same can be said of the vaccine. In both case we have no idea [0] https://www.insee.fr/en/statistiques/4493806?sommaire=4493845#graphique-figure7_radio1 https://www.insee.fr/en/statistiques/4493806?sommaire=449384...
- mrtesthah 5y ago
  >Well the same can be said of the vaccine. In both case we have no idea. See https://www.muhealth.org/our-stories/how-do-we-know-covid-19-vaccine-wont-have-long-term-side-effects https://www.muhealth.org/our-stories/how-do-we-know-covid-19... * History tells us that severe side effects are extremely rare, and if they if do occur, they usually happen within the first two months. * COVID-19 vaccine technologies have been studied for years and used in other treatments without issue. * The vaccine development process, from clinical trials to ongoing monitoring, helps to uncover and understand side effects.
  - polote 5y ago
    The same can be said of unknown longterm side effects of covid
    - mrtesthah 5y ago
      Covid is a virus, the effects of which are not comparable to a vaccine. There's a lot of past evidence (as mentioned in the article) for < 2 month indications of long-term side effects based on historical vaccine development. We aren't seeing any of those indicators for the covid vaccines. Moreover, we already have clinical evidence that covid causes long-term side effects in up to a third of people infected. There is no such evidence for any covid vaccine.
    - bart_spoon 5y ago
      Not really. There are multiple instances of viruses, such as HIV, Chickenpox, and HPV, which are known to cause increased health risks or outright disease years and often decades after the initial infection appears to fade. There are also many instances of "long" Covid we are already seeing in which people struggle with lingering symptoms, sometimes severe, for months after initially getting ill. And in children, the rare but serious phenomenon that's been called MISC, usually occurs weeks or months after the initial Covid infection has subsided. You are right that we don't know the long term side-effects of Covid, or of vaccination, and won't for quite some time. But what evidence we do have based on previous experiences with vaccines and viruses, as well as what we have already observed in Covid infections and vaccinations, makes it clear that vaccines are a far less risky prospect than the disease is.
- BoiledCabbage 5y ago
  If I were in your shoes, the main thing I'd look into is not hospitalized/death, but "long covid". Huge quality of life impact, way less understood. Estimates range from 6%-20%+ of people who get covid are still having symptoms 2 months or longer post infection. People who have symptoms two months after infection usually still are having side-effects one year later. Neurological, blood or organ impacts, but all very different and still not well understood. So I both don't want to seem like I'm hyping it up either because again a lot is unknown it might not be a serious issue / concern. The main point I'd say is if you're going to make a judgement based on risk make sure you're evaluating the situation completely. And for anyone looking at covid risks, they shouldn't be focused on solely death, but understand long covid as well. Current speculative thinking essentially believes it parallels either triggering auto-immune type issues, or dormant/re-emergent viruses (like chicken pox / shingles type of behavior). A not very good article on it, but don't have time to find a better one: https://amp.theatlantic.com/amp/article/619941/ https://amp.theatlantic.com/amp/article/619941/
  - NalNezumi 5y ago
    Thanks for the informative reply. Yes, I think my demographic group are way more concerned about the side effects/long term effects of vaccine/covid than hospitalizations or death. And covid is not "risk free" after a influenza like symptoms for weeks. I know same age group friends that have had covid and "loss of taste" have been the most common experience I've heard. It's anecdotal, but also a good data point to me since I know these people's lifestyle / demographic a bit better than sweeping big stats. I'll check out the link you gave regarding this specific topic about covid long term effects and compare it to what we know about the vaccine
criticaltinker 5y ago
> there's little/no treatment for the infection resulting from this virus. This is not true. Since the beginning of the pandemic front line doctors have been successfully reducing hospitalization and death through early treatment with antivirals, corticosteriods, and antithrombotics. [1] Multifaceted highly targeted sequential multidrug treatment of early ambulatory high-risk SARS-CoV-2 infection (COVID-19) https://scholarlycommons.henryford.com/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1139&context=infectiousdiseases_articles https://scholarlycommons.henryford.com/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?a... [2] Timing of Antiviral Treatment Initiation is Critical to Reduce SARS-CoV-2 Viral Load https://ascpt.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1002/psp4.12543 https://ascpt.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1002/psp4.1... [3] Clinical outcomes after early ambulatory multidrug therapy for high-risk SARS-CoV-2 (COVID-19) infection https://rcm.imrpress.com/EN/article/downloadArticleFile.do?attachType=PDF&id=5074 https://rcm.imrpress.com/EN/article/downloadArticleFile.do?a... [4] Early multidrug treatment of SARS-CoV-2 infection (COVID-19) and reduced mortality among nursing home (or outpatient/ambulatory) residents https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0306987721001419 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S03069... [5] Multidrug treatment for COVID-19 https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/ddt/advpub/0/advpub_2021.01005/_pdf https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/ddt/advpub/0/advpub_202...
- whatshisface 5y ago
  I guess a better way to phrase it is that there's no over-the-counter cure, and if you're at the point where a front line doctor is giving you steroids, things are already going worse than most people's vaccine side effects.
  - criticaltinker 5y ago
    > there's no over-the-counter cure All of those medications can be prescribed prophylactically (early in the symptomatic phase) by just about any clinic. I'm not advocating against vaccination, just pointing out that early treatment with widely available and existing medicines has also proven to be effective in reducing severe outcomes.
- NicoJuicy 5y ago

polote 5y ago

So it just doesn't give any benefit. Reducing the risk of something which is already close to zero, is still 0. If we follow your argument, why not take the vaccine ten times ? The excess mortality of people under 49 years in a country like france is zero in 2020 [0]. About long term effects of infections. Well the same can be said of the vaccine. In both case we have no idea [0] https://www.insee.fr/en/statistiques/4493806?sommaire=4493845#graphique-figure7_radio1 https://www.insee.fr/en/statistiques/4493806?sommaire=449384...

mrtesthah 5y ago
>Well the same can be said of the vaccine. In both case we have no idea. See https://www.muhealth.org/our-stories/how-do-we-know-covid-19-vaccine-wont-have-long-term-side-effects https://www.muhealth.org/our-stories/how-do-we-know-covid-19... * History tells us that severe side effects are extremely rare, and if they if do occur, they usually happen within the first two months. * COVID-19 vaccine technologies have been studied for years and used in other treatments without issue. * The vaccine development process, from clinical trials to ongoing monitoring, helps to uncover and understand side effects.
- polote 5y ago
  The same can be said of unknown longterm side effects of covid
  - mrtesthah 5y ago
    Covid is a virus, the effects of which are not comparable to a vaccine. There's a lot of past evidence (as mentioned in the article) for < 2 month indications of long-term side effects based on historical vaccine development. We aren't seeing any of those indicators for the covid vaccines. Moreover, we already have clinical evidence that covid causes long-term side effects in up to a third of people infected. There is no such evidence for any covid vaccine.
  - bart_spoon 5y ago
    Not really. There are multiple instances of viruses, such as HIV, Chickenpox, and HPV, which are known to cause increased health risks or outright disease years and often decades after the initial infection appears to fade. There are also many instances of "long" Covid we are already seeing in which people struggle with lingering symptoms, sometimes severe, for months after initially getting ill. And in children, the rare but serious phenomenon that's been called MISC, usually occurs weeks or months after the initial Covid infection has subsided. You are right that we don't know the long term side-effects of Covid, or of vaccination, and won't for quite some time. But what evidence we do have based on previous experiences with vaccines and viruses, as well as what we have already observed in Covid infections and vaccinations, makes it clear that vaccines are a far less risky prospect than the disease is.
BoiledCabbage 5y ago
If I were in your shoes, the main thing I'd look into is not hospitalized/death, but "long covid". Huge quality of life impact, way less understood. Estimates range from 6%-20%+ of people who get covid are still having symptoms 2 months or longer post infection. People who have symptoms two months after infection usually still are having side-effects one year later. Neurological, blood or organ impacts, but all very different and still not well understood. So I both don't want to seem like I'm hyping it up either because again a lot is unknown it might not be a serious issue / concern. The main point I'd say is if you're going to make a judgement based on risk make sure you're evaluating the situation completely. And for anyone looking at covid risks, they shouldn't be focused on solely death, but understand long covid as well. Current speculative thinking essentially believes it parallels either triggering auto-immune type issues, or dormant/re-emergent viruses (like chicken pox / shingles type of behavior). A not very good article on it, but don't have time to find a better one: https://amp.theatlantic.com/amp/article/619941/ https://amp.theatlantic.com/amp/article/619941/
- NalNezumi 5y ago
  Thanks for the informative reply. Yes, I think my demographic group are way more concerned about the side effects/long term effects of vaccine/covid than hospitalizations or death. And covid is not "risk free" after a influenza like symptoms for weeks. I know same age group friends that have had covid and "loss of taste" have been the most common experience I've heard. It's anecdotal, but also a good data point to me since I know these people's lifestyle / demographic a bit better than sweeping big stats. I'll check out the link you gave regarding this specific topic about covid long term effects and compare it to what we know about the vaccine

criticaltinker 5y ago

> there's little/no treatment for the infection resulting from this virus. This is not true. Since the beginning of the pandemic front line doctors have been successfully reducing hospitalization and death through early treatment with antivirals, corticosteriods, and antithrombotics. [1] Multifaceted highly targeted sequential multidrug treatment of early ambulatory high-risk SARS-CoV-2 infection (COVID-19) https://scholarlycommons.henryford.com/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1139&context=infectiousdiseases_articles https://scholarlycommons.henryford.com/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?a... [2] Timing of Antiviral Treatment Initiation is Critical to Reduce SARS-CoV-2 Viral Load https://ascpt.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1002/psp4.12543 https://ascpt.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1002/psp4.1... [3] Clinical outcomes after early ambulatory multidrug therapy for high-risk SARS-CoV-2 (COVID-19) infection https://rcm.imrpress.com/EN/article/downloadArticleFile.do?attachType=PDF&id=5074 https://rcm.imrpress.com/EN/article/downloadArticleFile.do?a... [4] Early multidrug treatment of SARS-CoV-2 infection (COVID-19) and reduced mortality among nursing home (or outpatient/ambulatory) residents https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0306987721001419 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S03069... [5] Multidrug treatment for COVID-19 https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/ddt/advpub/0/advpub_2021.01005/_pdf https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/ddt/advpub/0/advpub_202...

whatshisface 5y ago
I guess a better way to phrase it is that there's no over-the-counter cure, and if you're at the point where a front line doctor is giving you steroids, things are already going worse than most people's vaccine side effects.
- criticaltinker 5y ago
  > there's no over-the-counter cure All of those medications can be prescribed prophylactically (early in the symptomatic phase) by just about any clinic. I'm not advocating against vaccination, just pointing out that early treatment with widely available and existing medicines has also proven to be effective in reducing severe outcomes.
NicoJuicy 5y ago