6 ms·

I desperately want this to succeed as well. Enough that I've got a preorder that's supposed to ship this week. I'm willing to take the gamble. Sometimes you

I desperately want this to succeed as well. Enough that I've got a preorder that's supposed to ship this week. I'm willing to take the gamble. Sometimes you have to help fund the change you want to see in the world.

bastardoperator 5y ago
I can't see this succeeding when the laptop I have to assemble myself costs more than a prebuilt laptop with much better specs. I love the idea too, but the price seems a little outrageous.
- marcus_holmes 5y ago
  I have a Purism laptop, over 2 years old now so out of warranty. The USB system had a problem last month. Purism shipped me a new motherboard at cost within a few days. I happily swapped out the old motherboard (a bit fiddly in places, but perfectly straightforward). Laptop is fine, I'm typing this on it now. I've had problems with Dells before - if it's out of warranty then tough, nothing we can do. I had a screen fail on my 2014 Macbook - luckily in warranty so I got a new screen, but it took a week for them to do it. And, of course, I can upgrade the memory and/or drive any time I like - they're easily accessible and stock parts that I can buy from anywhere. I think the trade-off on price for this repairability is well worth it. If I'd bought a Dell instead of a Purism I'd be SOL and looking at the cost of a whole new laptop now.
  - kiba 5y ago
    But replacing a whole motherboard just to fix a few usb ports?
    - marcus_holmes 5y ago
      I'm no hardware expert, but I gather the USB2 subsystem had failed, and that required the motherboard replacement. Made sense to me.
    - admax88qqq 5y ago
      That's the downside of such integrated components. The upside is cheaper manufacturing, cheaper less assembly, less power draw, and less physical space.
      - lotsofpulp 5y ago
        Good quality integrated components might have a higher MTBF to begin with.
        admax88qqq 5y ago
        Also true
        marcus_holmes 5y ago
        MeanTBF - I got unlucky, I think
      - wott 5y ago
        USB hubs and similar I/O peripherals are not integrated.
  - abnercoimbre 5y ago
    Yes. And also wouldn't pricing get better over time? I think the GP is funding it knowing full well it's expensive for now - that's the point of taking the risk.
  - ksec 5y ago
    >Purism shipped me a new motherboard at cost within a few days. I wonder why they don't at least mark up the replacement? Or at cost means normal consumer cost and not BOM cost? In the other end of spectrum Apple do these part swap with exact same margin as they do on a new devices + their labour.
- outworlder 5y ago
  > I can't see this succeeding when the laptop I have to assemble myself costs more than a prebuilt laptop with much better specs. I mean, if all that mattered were specs, we would all be running desktops at full desktop-class TDP. Or laptops made out of cheap bendy plastic with the latest CPUs. Ergonomics matter, build quality matters, and for some the ability to adapt and upgrade is also part of the spec.
  - GiorgioG 5y ago
    > I mean, if all that mattered were specs, we would all be running desktops at full desktop-class TDP. As someone doing just that (I do 99% of my work on my desktop machine), to this day I don't understand folks doing heavy development work on a laptop. If you need portability, remote into a desktop class machine. Sure there are times when you just can't (airplane, or camping in the middle of nowhere, etc) but those times are exceedingly rare.
    - brundolf 5y ago
      A lot of people don't work completely from a terminal, and remote-desktop can be a pretty mixed experience. Also, this way companies don't have to issue each person two different devices (and have IT manage twice as many devices, with two different form-factors).
    - freeopinion 5y ago
      "Remote into a desktop"? That sounds like a horrible experience to me. I've never understood why anybody would remote control a pc for anything. If you need to code on the road, just code directly on whatever device you were going to use to remote control from. How does remote controlling some other computer make this computer's experience better? You still are stuck with this keyboard, this trackpad, this display, etc.
      - GiorgioG 5y ago
        Based on your comments, you've never had the opportunity/need to do so. I have and I can attest that I would much rather remote into a powerful desktop PC to write code than use a mobile processor. Maybe the software you build and its dev tooling allows you t to be effective with a mobile processor, but for my needs it's not good enough.
- amarshall 5y ago
  What laptops are you comparing to? When I compared to Lenovo X series and Dell XPS, Framework came out hundreds of dollars cheaper.
  - bastardoperator 5y ago
    If we look at a maxed out dell xps 13 with ubuntu, the cost is $1,909.00 and I can probably squeak out some additional cost with my business account. If we look at a maxed out M1 Macbook Air it's $2,049.00 with 2TB of drive space. The maxed out frame.work costs $1,917.00 with a 100 dollar deposit and that doesn't have a drive in because I don't trust WD with my data. If we add a 2 TB drive the cost is $2,316.00 or $2,416.00 with deposit. Granted there are some trade offs. Take for instance the frame.work has more memory, but the dell xps has a 4k screen. I don't see any costs savings here and I still have to open this thing up, source a drive and put it all together which means I'm spending additional money on this.
    - nicoburns 5y ago
      It might still end up cheaper if you can say, buy less RAM today then upgrade in future when it's cheaper rather than needing to max it out today to future proof because it's soldered on.
    - pjerem 5y ago
      Well, the price of parts of the DIY edition are really comparable to market price. Price is not that much higher if the promise to be able to keep upgraded is fulfilled, I totally can see this laptop being used (and upgraded) for at least a decade. There is literally nothing on the market that is equivalent to the PC tower you upgrade through years. And I truly love that they made the choice to use USB-C instead of proprietary connectors for the modules. It means that if the market really exists, we can hope for third party components.
    - amarshall 5y ago
      These comparisons are pretty useless because “maxed-out” means different things for each model. Maxed out M1 has a whopping 16 GB RAM, XPS has 32 GB, and Framework has 64 GB. Never mind that it doesn’t even seem you actually “maxed-out” either because I just made a XPS 13 Developer that costs US$2,459. So now you’re just comparing arbitrarily different specs.
- intricatedetail 5y ago
  Many companies use essentially slave labour and pass some of "savings" onto customers. Workers here couldn't live on 3rd world salaries. I would be outraged that those companies continue to exploit people.
- yellowapple 5y ago
  If Framework succeeds, then that upfront cost would eventually pay for itself as you perpetually upgrade the hardware rather than buy an entirely new laptop every time you want e.g. more RAM. Not to mention that as this catches on and Framework finds its footing, I'd fully expect the prices to come down with better economies of scale.
LeifCarrotson 5y ago
Sometimes 'funding the change you want to see' is merely to appease your own conscience; some real problems are systemic or caused by other actors. Turning a 1 L/min sink off for the 20 seconds of washing your hands doesn't matter when the farmer down the road is growing row crops in a desert with center-pivot irrigation system. But other times, like this? It's absolutely a valid approach. If a high-profile open laptop like this can succeed - which is helped at this scale by individual purchases - maybe some bigger players will take notice.
- sharikone 5y ago
  You'd be surprised by how much water has been saved in droughts by encouraging this kind of small scale efforts. E.g. the Cape Town water crisis
  - adrusi 5y ago
    A water crisis is almost always a case of using slightly more water than is available, so you can usually address one by putting the burden on whichever consumers are least able to fight back, even if they are least responsible for the crisis.
  - idoubtit 5y ago
    I think your comment is misleading. What was "encouraged" during the Cape Town water crisis was not "small scale efforts". There were details like forbidding hand-washing in some places (replaced by hand sanitizers), but there were also important changes. For example, they introduced a punitive water price for big consumers. Like the OP, I think one should analyze the problem before opting for the "obvious" solution. I did so with water a few years ago. IIRC, for individuals the biggest share is for showers, then toilet. These two account for two thirds of standard use. If you encourage people to turn off the sink more often, you may gain 20%... of 5% of their average water needs, so 1% overall. If they take fewer showers, each with less water, they easily can halve their consumption, so a gain of more than 20% overall.
- omegalulw 5y ago
  1 L/min is 1 L/min, and it's not a great sacrifice to turn off a faucet when you don't need it. So even if the farmer is not judiciously using water, it doesn't mean you shouldn't.

bastardoperator 5y ago

I can't see this succeeding when the laptop I have to assemble myself costs more than a prebuilt laptop with much better specs. I love the idea too, but the price seems a little outrageous.

marcus_holmes 5y ago
I have a Purism laptop, over 2 years old now so out of warranty. The USB system had a problem last month. Purism shipped me a new motherboard at cost within a few days. I happily swapped out the old motherboard (a bit fiddly in places, but perfectly straightforward). Laptop is fine, I'm typing this on it now. I've had problems with Dells before - if it's out of warranty then tough, nothing we can do. I had a screen fail on my 2014 Macbook - luckily in warranty so I got a new screen, but it took a week for them to do it. And, of course, I can upgrade the memory and/or drive any time I like - they're easily accessible and stock parts that I can buy from anywhere. I think the trade-off on price for this repairability is well worth it. If I'd bought a Dell instead of a Purism I'd be SOL and looking at the cost of a whole new laptop now.
- kiba 5y ago
  But replacing a whole motherboard just to fix a few usb ports?
  - marcus_holmes 5y ago
    I'm no hardware expert, but I gather the USB2 subsystem had failed, and that required the motherboard replacement. Made sense to me.
  - admax88qqq 5y ago
    That's the downside of such integrated components. The upside is cheaper manufacturing, cheaper less assembly, less power draw, and less physical space.
    - lotsofpulp 5y ago
      Good quality integrated components might have a higher MTBF to begin with.
      - admax88qqq 5y ago
        Also true
        marcus_holmes 5y ago
        MeanTBF - I got unlucky, I think
    - wott 5y ago
      USB hubs and similar I/O peripherals are not integrated.
- abnercoimbre 5y ago
  Yes. And also wouldn't pricing get better over time? I think the GP is funding it knowing full well it's expensive for now - that's the point of taking the risk.
- ksec 5y ago
  >Purism shipped me a new motherboard at cost within a few days. I wonder why they don't at least mark up the replacement? Or at cost means normal consumer cost and not BOM cost? In the other end of spectrum Apple do these part swap with exact same margin as they do on a new devices + their labour.
outworlder 5y ago
> I can't see this succeeding when the laptop I have to assemble myself costs more than a prebuilt laptop with much better specs. I mean, if all that mattered were specs, we would all be running desktops at full desktop-class TDP. Or laptops made out of cheap bendy plastic with the latest CPUs. Ergonomics matter, build quality matters, and for some the ability to adapt and upgrade is also part of the spec.
- GiorgioG 5y ago
  > I mean, if all that mattered were specs, we would all be running desktops at full desktop-class TDP. As someone doing just that (I do 99% of my work on my desktop machine), to this day I don't understand folks doing heavy development work on a laptop. If you need portability, remote into a desktop class machine. Sure there are times when you just can't (airplane, or camping in the middle of nowhere, etc) but those times are exceedingly rare.
  - brundolf 5y ago
    A lot of people don't work completely from a terminal, and remote-desktop can be a pretty mixed experience. Also, this way companies don't have to issue each person two different devices (and have IT manage twice as many devices, with two different form-factors).
  - freeopinion 5y ago
    "Remote into a desktop"? That sounds like a horrible experience to me. I've never understood why anybody would remote control a pc for anything. If you need to code on the road, just code directly on whatever device you were going to use to remote control from. How does remote controlling some other computer make this computer's experience better? You still are stuck with this keyboard, this trackpad, this display, etc.
    - GiorgioG 5y ago
      Based on your comments, you've never had the opportunity/need to do so. I have and I can attest that I would much rather remote into a powerful desktop PC to write code than use a mobile processor. Maybe the software you build and its dev tooling allows you t to be effective with a mobile processor, but for my needs it's not good enough.
amarshall 5y ago
What laptops are you comparing to? When I compared to Lenovo X series and Dell XPS, Framework came out hundreds of dollars cheaper.
- bastardoperator 5y ago
  If we look at a maxed out dell xps 13 with ubuntu, the cost is $1,909.00 and I can probably squeak out some additional cost with my business account. If we look at a maxed out M1 Macbook Air it's $2,049.00 with 2TB of drive space. The maxed out frame.work costs $1,917.00 with a 100 dollar deposit and that doesn't have a drive in because I don't trust WD with my data. If we add a 2 TB drive the cost is $2,316.00 or $2,416.00 with deposit. Granted there are some trade offs. Take for instance the frame.work has more memory, but the dell xps has a 4k screen. I don't see any costs savings here and I still have to open this thing up, source a drive and put it all together which means I'm spending additional money on this.
  - nicoburns 5y ago
    It might still end up cheaper if you can say, buy less RAM today then upgrade in future when it's cheaper rather than needing to max it out today to future proof because it's soldered on.
  - pjerem 5y ago
    Well, the price of parts of the DIY edition are really comparable to market price. Price is not that much higher if the promise to be able to keep upgraded is fulfilled, I totally can see this laptop being used (and upgraded) for at least a decade. There is literally nothing on the market that is equivalent to the PC tower you upgrade through years. And I truly love that they made the choice to use USB-C instead of proprietary connectors for the modules. It means that if the market really exists, we can hope for third party components.
  - amarshall 5y ago
    These comparisons are pretty useless because “maxed-out” means different things for each model. Maxed out M1 has a whopping 16 GB RAM, XPS has 32 GB, and Framework has 64 GB. Never mind that it doesn’t even seem you actually “maxed-out” either because I just made a XPS 13 Developer that costs US$2,459. So now you’re just comparing arbitrarily different specs.
intricatedetail 5y ago
Many companies use essentially slave labour and pass some of "savings" onto customers. Workers here couldn't live on 3rd world salaries. I would be outraged that those companies continue to exploit people.
yellowapple 5y ago
If Framework succeeds, then that upfront cost would eventually pay for itself as you perpetually upgrade the hardware rather than buy an entirely new laptop every time you want e.g. more RAM. Not to mention that as this catches on and Framework finds its footing, I'd fully expect the prices to come down with better economies of scale.

LeifCarrotson 5y ago

Sometimes 'funding the change you want to see' is merely to appease your own conscience; some real problems are systemic or caused by other actors. Turning a 1 L/min sink off for the 20 seconds of washing your hands doesn't matter when the farmer down the road is growing row crops in a desert with center-pivot irrigation system. But other times, like this? It's absolutely a valid approach. If a high-profile open laptop like this can succeed - which is helped at this scale by individual purchases - maybe some bigger players will take notice.

sharikone 5y ago
You'd be surprised by how much water has been saved in droughts by encouraging this kind of small scale efforts. E.g. the Cape Town water crisis
- adrusi 5y ago
  A water crisis is almost always a case of using slightly more water than is available, so you can usually address one by putting the burden on whichever consumers are least able to fight back, even if they are least responsible for the crisis.
- idoubtit 5y ago
  I think your comment is misleading. What was "encouraged" during the Cape Town water crisis was not "small scale efforts". There were details like forbidding hand-washing in some places (replaced by hand sanitizers), but there were also important changes. For example, they introduced a punitive water price for big consumers. Like the OP, I think one should analyze the problem before opting for the "obvious" solution. I did so with water a few years ago. IIRC, for individuals the biggest share is for showers, then toilet. These two account for two thirds of standard use. If you encourage people to turn off the sink more often, you may gain 20%... of 5% of their average water needs, so 1% overall. If they take fewer showers, each with less water, they easily can halve their consumption, so a gain of more than 20% overall.
omegalulw 5y ago
1 L/min is 1 L/min, and it's not a great sacrifice to turn off a faucet when you don't need it. So even if the farmer is not judiciously using water, it doesn't mean you shouldn't.