3 ms·

Whatever is causing the severe side-effects, it's probably not the MRNA or the spike protein. With Pfizer/Moderna vaccines, it's likely the lipid nanoparticles

Whatever is causing the severe side-effects, it's probably not the MRNA or the spike protein. With Pfizer/Moderna vaccines, it's likely the lipid nanoparticles causing Myocarditis. With the J&J vaccine, it's likely the viral vector that is causing TTS. Both technologies have never been widely deployed before. The fact that we could not predict and still do not understand these side-effects is quite concerning. It also puts into question the "COVID infection is like the vaccine only worse" narrative.

hackingforfun 5y ago
I've read that Myocarditis can happen with actual COVID cases as well [1]. To me that makes sense, considering that the mRNA-based vaccines generate a portion of the spike protein similar to the actual virus. [1] https://www.clinicaltrialsarena.com/comment/myocarditis-covid-19/ https://www.clinicaltrialsarena.com/comment/myocarditis-covi...
- incrudible 5y ago
  This doesn't explain that the viral-vector vaccines generally don't cause Myocarditis, or at least not anywhere near as much as the LNP vaccines.
- raphlinus 5y ago
  Considerably greater risk of myocarditis and other heart issues from infection than the vaccine. See Fig 4 of [1] in particular. When reading that chart, keep in mind that lymphadenopathy is just swelling of the lymph nodes, and is an expected and not-serious effect of the vaccine; it's a sign that an immune response is being triggered. [1]: https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2110475 https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2110475
  - incrudible 5y ago
    > Considerably greater risk of myocarditis and other heart issues from infection than the vaccine. Citing your source: 2.7 events per 100,000 persons (vaccinated) 11.0 events per 100,000 persons (SarS-COV2 positive) This already doesn't look that great, considering that the risk of a PCR-confirmed infection is not 100%. More importantly, it doesn't take into account age. The age group at highest risk from Myocarditis following vaccination is 16-17 year-old males, latest numbers from the CDC[1]: 5.1/71.5 events* per 100,000 first/second Pfizer doses administered (within 7 days) This has a strong bias towards the second dose, it's not clear yet how booster shots fare here, which may need to be administered at 5 months intervals. It stands to reason that the Myocarditis risk from COVID infection in that age group should also be higher, but it's not clear whether the benefit outweighs the risk in that age/sex group, considering that both infection count and side-effect cases tend to be under-reported. *) It's not clear whether that number includes the cases "under investigation". If so, this would further raise the risk by up to 66%. [1]: https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/acip/meetings/downloads/slides-2021-08-30/03-COVID-Su-508.pdf https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/acip/meetings/downloads/slides-... (Page 13)
phonypc 5y ago
>it's likely the lipid nanoparticles causing Myocarditis What's this based on? Given the occurrence of myocarditis in actual COVID infections at a higher rate than with the vaccines, it seems more likely to be an immune-mediated response, at least partly to the spike fragments included in the mRNA vaccines.
- incrudible 5y ago
  > What's this based on? It's a common feature of the LNP-based vaccines, not the viral-vector-based ones.

hackingforfun 5y ago

I've read that Myocarditis can happen with actual COVID cases as well [1]. To me that makes sense, considering that the mRNA-based vaccines generate a portion of the spike protein similar to the actual virus. [1] https://www.clinicaltrialsarena.com/comment/myocarditis-covid-19/ https://www.clinicaltrialsarena.com/comment/myocarditis-covi...

incrudible 5y ago
This doesn't explain that the viral-vector vaccines generally don't cause Myocarditis, or at least not anywhere near as much as the LNP vaccines.
raphlinus 5y ago
Considerably greater risk of myocarditis and other heart issues from infection than the vaccine. See Fig 4 of [1] in particular. When reading that chart, keep in mind that lymphadenopathy is just swelling of the lymph nodes, and is an expected and not-serious effect of the vaccine; it's a sign that an immune response is being triggered. [1]: https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2110475 https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2110475
- incrudible 5y ago
  > Considerably greater risk of myocarditis and other heart issues from infection than the vaccine. Citing your source: 2.7 events per 100,000 persons (vaccinated) 11.0 events per 100,000 persons (SarS-COV2 positive) This already doesn't look that great, considering that the risk of a PCR-confirmed infection is not 100%. More importantly, it doesn't take into account age. The age group at highest risk from Myocarditis following vaccination is 16-17 year-old males, latest numbers from the CDC[1]: 5.1/71.5 events* per 100,000 first/second Pfizer doses administered (within 7 days) This has a strong bias towards the second dose, it's not clear yet how booster shots fare here, which may need to be administered at 5 months intervals. It stands to reason that the Myocarditis risk from COVID infection in that age group should also be higher, but it's not clear whether the benefit outweighs the risk in that age/sex group, considering that both infection count and side-effect cases tend to be under-reported. *) It's not clear whether that number includes the cases "under investigation". If so, this would further raise the risk by up to 66%. [1]: https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/acip/meetings/downloads/slides-2021-08-30/03-COVID-Su-508.pdf https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/acip/meetings/downloads/slides-... (Page 13)

phonypc 5y ago

>it's likely the lipid nanoparticles causing Myocarditis What's this based on? Given the occurrence of myocarditis in actual COVID infections at a higher rate than with the vaccines, it seems more likely to be an immune-mediated response, at least partly to the spike fragments included in the mRNA vaccines.

incrudible 5y ago
> What's this based on? It's a common feature of the LNP-based vaccines, not the viral-vector-based ones.