4 ms·

Don't forget, our salaries are largely unchanged although the market is finding it out the hard way (employee shortage). So honest hardworking people got tripl

Don't forget, our salaries are largely unchanged although the market is finding it out the hard way (employee shortage). So honest hardworking people got triple-fucked. I can't imagine how well UBI would ever go. This should be the nail in the coffin for UBI for me, I will never vote for it.

lifty 5y ago
You wouldn't vote for the party that promised to implement it you mean. I would love it if more democracies would enable citizens to vote on important issues like this, similarly to what Switzerland does.
- systemvoltage 5y ago
  I've always been a Democrat but lately, I am reconsidering my position. I am not a single issue voter but UBI might be the reason to not support the Democratic party for me (if it ever gets on the ballot). Thankfully, most Democrats I know oppose UBI. The reason I am reconsidering is to do with how the entire west-coast is run - living in Seattle, Bay Area, LA and Portland feels like a third world nation. I'll probably continue to vote for Democrats in the presidential election, but local and county elections it will be the Republicans or Libertarians.
  - vineyardmike 5y ago
    > living in Seattle, Bay Area, LA and Portland feels like a third world nation UBI would help a lot with homelessness and blight. Also seattle is not nearly as bad as the rest of those places in 90+% of the area.
    - nostrademons 5y ago
      If it's coupled with actually building houses. Add UBI to existing zoning & construction regulations and you'll just see rent increase.
  - bananabreakfast 5y ago
    You've very clearly never been to an actual third world country. Having homeless people and a high crime rate does not == 3rd world. In fact, it only means many, many people want to live there due to the overwhelming economic prosperity that is clearly not equitably split. Also fun fact: the three "third world" states you mention have a combined GDP higher than EVERY OTHER COUNTRY IN THE WORLD after the US, China and Japan.
    - systemvoltage 5y ago
      Hold on a sec, cut down the all caps. No need to shout. I grew up in a third-world nation and it's far better than the feces ridden shithole that is SF and Oakland, largely the bay area. Needles on walkways, crime through the roof, plastic trash on the road sides, feeling terrified of walking on the street at night, car thefts, the whole 9 yards. It is indistinguishable from a third-world country, I'd argue it is worse. Sure, GDP is higher, thanks to big corporations and wealthy NIMBYs camping out in their caves, voting for their own demise. > many people want to live there due to the overwhelming economic prosperity No one wants to live in Bay Area. In fact, most engineers I've talked to want to leave and they have been leaving in droves.
      - nostrademons 5y ago
        The Bay Area is much larger than SF and Oakland. The Peninsula is lovely, no needles, no shit, good schools, beautiful homes in the hills, we actually support our police departments who generally come when you call them, etc. Even South Bay is great, modulo housing expenses. I never felt unsafe in Sunnyvale, and it and Fremont have some of the lowest crime rates of cities > 150K pop in the U.S.
- eru 5y ago
  This sounds noble in theory, but in practice people make awful choices.
dec0dedab0de 5y ago
That's not fair to UBI. Not everyone got it, so it wasn't universal. They shut down most small businesses, so the benefits of the extra income were consolidated in a few major companies. The housing market went up because people who were previously happy to live in an expensive small apartment in a busy city were suddenly forced to stay inside most of the time, and realized they would rather have a bigger place.
- systemvoltage 5y ago
  Not convinced. Inflation would skyrocket, asset-holders will get richer and inequality would get worse if it already isn't. The fella working at McDonalds would get shortchanged for not playing the asset-bubble stock-bubble game as he/she is serving $20 burgers to customers.
  - dec0dedab0de 5y ago
    That may be true, but my point was that this is not a good example of UBI. This is a global pandemic, and a bunch of actions around it. Though since we're talking about it, I think UBI might work if we also outlawed fractional reserve banking. Currently, new money is created when banks lend out more than they have, I think they like to call it "leverage." This creates a type of inflation, but the only ones benefiting are the banks and the people/businesses they choose to loan money to. Instead of allowing leveraged bank loans, we could create the same inflation by blatantly printing new money every year and distributing it equally. This would give the benefits of inflation to everyone. If you wanted to start a business, instead of getting a cheap loan you would have to crowd fund it, because all the money(power) that was in the hands of banks is now everywhere. If we needed to control inflation, we could have taxes and remove the money collected from the pool instead of using it. It would be a bit of a balancing act to make sure enough people keep working, and that prices don't get too high, but I think it's doable.
    - dnautics 5y ago
      I think systemsvoltages' point is that if it's "not a good example of UBI" because not everyone got stimulus, an actual, scotsman UBI would be even worse, precisely because everyone would get stimulated.
01100011 5y ago
I think you're getting downvoted for your UBI comment. > So honest hardworking people got triple-fucked. You're absolutely right. Real wages are actually down. If I wasn't a relatively rich SW guy and was a laborer I might be out in the streets lighting shit on fire right about now. I feel frustrated because I might not be able to buy a home again for a year or two, but there are people who are seeing their dreams disappear forever in front of their eyes. Imagine being a low-skilled person who was aiming to buy a house in a lower-tier market until outside speculators and investors move in, searching for anywhere they can park their leveraged cash piles before inflation sets them aflame. I can only hope that these piles of capital go up in smoke as the malinvestments driven by fanatical fed policy prove unwise.

lifty 5y ago

You wouldn't vote for the party that promised to implement it you mean. I would love it if more democracies would enable citizens to vote on important issues like this, similarly to what Switzerland does.

systemvoltage 5y ago
I've always been a Democrat but lately, I am reconsidering my position. I am not a single issue voter but UBI might be the reason to not support the Democratic party for me (if it ever gets on the ballot). Thankfully, most Democrats I know oppose UBI. The reason I am reconsidering is to do with how the entire west-coast is run - living in Seattle, Bay Area, LA and Portland feels like a third world nation. I'll probably continue to vote for Democrats in the presidential election, but local and county elections it will be the Republicans or Libertarians.
- vineyardmike 5y ago
  > living in Seattle, Bay Area, LA and Portland feels like a third world nation UBI would help a lot with homelessness and blight. Also seattle is not nearly as bad as the rest of those places in 90+% of the area.
  - nostrademons 5y ago
    If it's coupled with actually building houses. Add UBI to existing zoning & construction regulations and you'll just see rent increase.
- bananabreakfast 5y ago
  You've very clearly never been to an actual third world country. Having homeless people and a high crime rate does not == 3rd world. In fact, it only means many, many people want to live there due to the overwhelming economic prosperity that is clearly not equitably split. Also fun fact: the three "third world" states you mention have a combined GDP higher than EVERY OTHER COUNTRY IN THE WORLD after the US, China and Japan.
  - systemvoltage 5y ago
    Hold on a sec, cut down the all caps. No need to shout. I grew up in a third-world nation and it's far better than the feces ridden shithole that is SF and Oakland, largely the bay area. Needles on walkways, crime through the roof, plastic trash on the road sides, feeling terrified of walking on the street at night, car thefts, the whole 9 yards. It is indistinguishable from a third-world country, I'd argue it is worse. Sure, GDP is higher, thanks to big corporations and wealthy NIMBYs camping out in their caves, voting for their own demise. > many people want to live there due to the overwhelming economic prosperity No one wants to live in Bay Area. In fact, most engineers I've talked to want to leave and they have been leaving in droves.
    - nostrademons 5y ago
      The Bay Area is much larger than SF and Oakland. The Peninsula is lovely, no needles, no shit, good schools, beautiful homes in the hills, we actually support our police departments who generally come when you call them, etc. Even South Bay is great, modulo housing expenses. I never felt unsafe in Sunnyvale, and it and Fremont have some of the lowest crime rates of cities > 150K pop in the U.S.
eru 5y ago
This sounds noble in theory, but in practice people make awful choices.

dec0dedab0de 5y ago

That's not fair to UBI. Not everyone got it, so it wasn't universal. They shut down most small businesses, so the benefits of the extra income were consolidated in a few major companies. The housing market went up because people who were previously happy to live in an expensive small apartment in a busy city were suddenly forced to stay inside most of the time, and realized they would rather have a bigger place.

systemvoltage 5y ago
Not convinced. Inflation would skyrocket, asset-holders will get richer and inequality would get worse if it already isn't. The fella working at McDonalds would get shortchanged for not playing the asset-bubble stock-bubble game as he/she is serving $20 burgers to customers.
- dec0dedab0de 5y ago
  That may be true, but my point was that this is not a good example of UBI. This is a global pandemic, and a bunch of actions around it. Though since we're talking about it, I think UBI might work if we also outlawed fractional reserve banking. Currently, new money is created when banks lend out more than they have, I think they like to call it "leverage." This creates a type of inflation, but the only ones benefiting are the banks and the people/businesses they choose to loan money to. Instead of allowing leveraged bank loans, we could create the same inflation by blatantly printing new money every year and distributing it equally. This would give the benefits of inflation to everyone. If you wanted to start a business, instead of getting a cheap loan you would have to crowd fund it, because all the money(power) that was in the hands of banks is now everywhere. If we needed to control inflation, we could have taxes and remove the money collected from the pool instead of using it. It would be a bit of a balancing act to make sure enough people keep working, and that prices don't get too high, but I think it's doable.
  - dnautics 5y ago
    I think systemsvoltages' point is that if it's "not a good example of UBI" because not everyone got stimulus, an actual, scotsman UBI would be even worse, precisely because everyone would get stimulated.

01100011 5y ago

I think you're getting downvoted for your UBI comment. > So honest hardworking people got triple-fucked. You're absolutely right. Real wages are actually down. If I wasn't a relatively rich SW guy and was a laborer I might be out in the streets lighting shit on fire right about now. I feel frustrated because I might not be able to buy a home again for a year or two, but there are people who are seeing their dreams disappear forever in front of their eyes. Imagine being a low-skilled person who was aiming to buy a house in a lower-tier market until outside speculators and investors move in, searching for anywhere they can park their leveraged cash piles before inflation sets them aflame. I can only hope that these piles of capital go up in smoke as the malinvestments driven by fanatical fed policy prove unwise.