5 ms·

I am fascinated to know what the effects are of over-vaccination. Is there some spillover effects where a highly-primed immune system begins to get into weird a

by xattt 5y ago

I am fascinated to know what the effects are of over-vaccination. Is there some spillover effects where a highly-primed immune system begins to get into weird autoimmune reactions? Do weird plaques develop or a build-up of antibodies begin to form in random parts of the body, like in a blood dyscrasia? Or does nothing happen? Chronic vaccine overdoses are so exotic, as access to vaccines had been historically so tightly controlled, and it’s unlikely that someone would routinely subject themselves to daily/weekly IM injections. Edit: After seeing a few responses, I meant to say that my curiosity is for vaccine doses way over and above what might be comparable to current practices with annual vaccinations.

Tenoke 5y ago
Annual flu jabs aren't exactly uncommon. Obviously the mechanism isn't quite the same but there's no real reason to expect a high chance of issues at that rate of revaccination.
- unknownOrigin 5y ago
  I wouldn't exactly call a comparison between gene therapy "isn't quite the same". Flu shots contain inactivated/weakened flu virus (depending on the version), to the presence of which/antigens the body reacts by creating antibodies. RNA vaccines are a different technology, which transfect (reprogram in IT speak) your own cells to produce spike proteins similar to the ones sars-cov-2 does (the consensus seems to be that this spike variant is, unlike the real one, harmless and is not free floating) which are then detected by the the body and antibodies are created. The result is esentially the same, but the way you get there contains an extra step and it is this extra step that is the source of the vast majority of (rare) adverse reactions. Blood clots etc. The ironic thing is that most people who are very strongly opinionated on this (both sides) have no idea what the actual difference is and blindly trust whatever either the government or a local anti-vax facebook group tells them.
  - rssoconnor 5y ago
    > The result is esentially the same, but the way you get there contains an extra step and it is this extra step that is the source of the vast majority of (rare) adverse reactions. Blood clots etc. The blood clotting issue was found in the Adenovirus vector vaccines, not the mRNA vaccines.
  - greenhatman 5y ago
    >your own cells to produce spike proteins similar to the ones sars-cov-2 does Does this destroy the cell used to make the spike proteins? Or does your immune system destroy the cells that made spike proteins?
    - dogma1138 5y ago
      No, it doesn’t work like that mRNA isn’t a virus or virus like it doesn’t hijacks the cell. The mRNA fragments are picked up by dendritic cells and antigens are produced. The antigens (and the mRNA itself) are then attacked by special proteins within your cells that are designed to destroy foreign or malformed proteins and the fragments of those destroyed antigens are then presented in the cell membrane for T and B cells to inspect and produce antibodies against.
      - Vecr 5y ago
        What about cytotoxic T cells? What would prevent them from killing the cell?
        dogma1138 5y ago
        By the time you have a T Cell response the mRNA and the antigens would be long gone.
        Vecr 5y ago
        Not if it's a booster, or even the second dose. That's the whole idea of this chain, yeah?
whatshisface 5y ago
A lot of people get a flu shot every year so on the level of abstraction of "a vaccine" it's not that big of a problem. These vaccines are slightly more side effecty than the average flu shot (flu shots don't usually make you feel as bad for the day or two after the shot) so who knows.
- op00to 5y ago
  I've never felt weird after a flu shot other than slight pain in my arm. Each shot of moderna knocked me the f out in horrible ways. My pfizerwife was fine.
  - whatshisface 5y ago
    There's also variation from person to person and season to season in flu vaccine side effects, but the covid vaccine seems to be giving the two-day knockout a little more often. Maybe in 2025 we'll start getting specific figures. There does not seem to be a lot of desire to carefully quantify non life-threatening side effects, which is kind of understandable given the limited resources of regulatory agencies and the incentives of pharmaceuticals, but I would like to live in a scientific world where that kind of data was always collected, if for no other reason than that it would remove the element of trusting the system to act reasonably from medical decisionmaking.
  - sudosysgen 5y ago
    Anecdotally when I took a flu shot years ago I was knocked out for a day.
amluto 5y ago
It's not unusual to get very large numbers of lifetime doses of flu vaccines, and people frequently get quite a few doses of the tetanus vaccine. As far as I know, nothing goes wrong, although I've heard that side effects from tetanus vaccines are more likely if doses are administered too close together.
ezconnect 5y ago
Vaccination of the population affects how the virus mutate, that's why some scientist are pushing for more research on viral medicine and hospitalization therapy and not to force vaccinate the world. It's still an evolving process so we will find out the numbers soon.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
zeku 5y ago
I'm not an expert, but my intuition is that it shouldn't be a big deal since vaccines are meant to start your body's response to a pathogen. I'm sure we build antibodies to all kind of weak baby viruses all the time throughout our lives without even knowing it.
lm28469 5y ago
> Do weird plaques develop > build-up of antibodies begin to form in random parts of the body Real curious: do these things exist in the first place ? Plaques of what ? Where in the body ? I've never heard of antibody build up and google neither apparently
- xattt 5y ago
  The thing that comes to mind are leukaemia cutis, cutaneous b-cell lymphoma and POEMS syndrome. (1) https://dermnetnz.org/topics/skin-manifestations-of-haematological-diseases/ https://dermnetnz.org/topics/skin-manifestations-of-haematol...

by xattt 5y ago

Tenoke 5y ago

Annual flu jabs aren't exactly uncommon. Obviously the mechanism isn't quite the same but there's no real reason to expect a high chance of issues at that rate of revaccination.

unknownOrigin 5y ago
I wouldn't exactly call a comparison between gene therapy "isn't quite the same". Flu shots contain inactivated/weakened flu virus (depending on the version), to the presence of which/antigens the body reacts by creating antibodies. RNA vaccines are a different technology, which transfect (reprogram in IT speak) your own cells to produce spike proteins similar to the ones sars-cov-2 does (the consensus seems to be that this spike variant is, unlike the real one, harmless and is not free floating) which are then detected by the the body and antibodies are created. The result is esentially the same, but the way you get there contains an extra step and it is this extra step that is the source of the vast majority of (rare) adverse reactions. Blood clots etc. The ironic thing is that most people who are very strongly opinionated on this (both sides) have no idea what the actual difference is and blindly trust whatever either the government or a local anti-vax facebook group tells them.
- rssoconnor 5y ago
  > The result is esentially the same, but the way you get there contains an extra step and it is this extra step that is the source of the vast majority of (rare) adverse reactions. Blood clots etc. The blood clotting issue was found in the Adenovirus vector vaccines, not the mRNA vaccines.
- greenhatman 5y ago
  >your own cells to produce spike proteins similar to the ones sars-cov-2 does Does this destroy the cell used to make the spike proteins? Or does your immune system destroy the cells that made spike proteins?
  - dogma1138 5y ago
    No, it doesn’t work like that mRNA isn’t a virus or virus like it doesn’t hijacks the cell. The mRNA fragments are picked up by dendritic cells and antigens are produced. The antigens (and the mRNA itself) are then attacked by special proteins within your cells that are designed to destroy foreign or malformed proteins and the fragments of those destroyed antigens are then presented in the cell membrane for T and B cells to inspect and produce antibodies against.
    - Vecr 5y ago
      What about cytotoxic T cells? What would prevent them from killing the cell?
      - dogma1138 5y ago
        By the time you have a T Cell response the mRNA and the antigens would be long gone.
        Vecr 5y ago
        Not if it's a booster, or even the second dose. That's the whole idea of this chain, yeah?

whatshisface 5y ago

A lot of people get a flu shot every year so on the level of abstraction of "a vaccine" it's not that big of a problem. These vaccines are slightly more side effecty than the average flu shot (flu shots don't usually make you feel as bad for the day or two after the shot) so who knows.

op00to 5y ago
I've never felt weird after a flu shot other than slight pain in my arm. Each shot of moderna knocked me the f out in horrible ways. My pfizerwife was fine.
- whatshisface 5y ago
  There's also variation from person to person and season to season in flu vaccine side effects, but the covid vaccine seems to be giving the two-day knockout a little more often. Maybe in 2025 we'll start getting specific figures. There does not seem to be a lot of desire to carefully quantify non life-threatening side effects, which is kind of understandable given the limited resources of regulatory agencies and the incentives of pharmaceuticals, but I would like to live in a scientific world where that kind of data was always collected, if for no other reason than that it would remove the element of trusting the system to act reasonably from medical decisionmaking.
- sudosysgen 5y ago
  Anecdotally when I took a flu shot years ago I was knocked out for a day.

amluto 5y ago

It's not unusual to get very large numbers of lifetime doses of flu vaccines, and people frequently get quite a few doses of the tetanus vaccine. As far as I know, nothing goes wrong, although I've heard that side effects from tetanus vaccines are more likely if doses are administered too close together.

ezconnect 5y ago

Vaccination of the population affects how the virus mutate, that's why some scientist are pushing for more research on viral medicine and hospitalization therapy and not to force vaccinate the world. It's still an evolving process so we will find out the numbers soon.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

zeku 5y ago

I'm not an expert, but my intuition is that it shouldn't be a big deal since vaccines are meant to start your body's response to a pathogen. I'm sure we build antibodies to all kind of weak baby viruses all the time throughout our lives without even knowing it.

lm28469 5y ago

> Do weird plaques develop > build-up of antibodies begin to form in random parts of the body Real curious: do these things exist in the first place ? Plaques of what ? Where in the body ? I've never heard of antibody build up and google neither apparently

xattt 5y ago
The thing that comes to mind are leukaemia cutis, cutaneous b-cell lymphoma and POEMS syndrome. (1) https://dermnetnz.org/topics/skin-manifestations-of-haematological-diseases/ https://dermnetnz.org/topics/skin-manifestations-of-haematol...