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I made a fairly popular reddit post recently on how I down-leveled my career in recent years. Each time I down-level, I get a raise in salary -- it's pretty gre

by vbtemp 5y ago

I made a fairly popular reddit post recently on how I down-leveled my career in recent years. Each time I down-level, I get a raise in salary -- it's pretty great. What that permitted me to learn about myself is that - at the end of the day - I just like solving interesting and challenging problems, working with colleagues as equals, and creating products and solutions that I'm proud of. I have utterly no interest any more in climbing any sorts of ladders, or "chasing" a role, position, or title because I think that'll somehow be the road to riches. Having autonomy, the flexibility to work when I'm productive and inspired (and to not work when not), and interesting/meaningful work is infinitely more important than role or salary. I also feel like I'm not the first person to come to this conclusion.

nine_zeros 5y ago
A link to the reddit post would benefit an audience like me
- vbtemp 5y ago
  https://www.reddit.com/r/ExperiencedDevs/comments/nnw7yd/sober_post_things_ive_learned_downleveling_my/ https://www.reddit.com/r/ExperiencedDevs/comments/nnw7yd/sob... It's a little cheeky and at times a little hyperbolic, but I stand by it.
  - nine_zeros 5y ago
    I agree with every single point
rizzaxc 5y ago
I mean at the end of the day the title is only to feed your own ego. At family gathering nobody's gonna ask you why you were Principal and now you're Staff. I find no difference between being called a "Director" or a "Manager", because the title alone tells me absolutely nothing Reminds me of American Psycho, where everybody is a damn Vice President (reflective of the time)
- pedrosorio 5y ago
  > Reminds me of American Psycho, where everybody is a damn Vice President (reflective of the time) Reflective of the industry, really. It’s still that way in banking.
  - bluGill 5y ago
    Vice President has legal meaning as a title. Only a vice president or above can make some loans. Since banks make those loans all the time they need a lot of vice presidents to do it. In a small town bank with at most 10 people it makes sense, but for a large banks with branches all over the country you end up with a ton of vice presidents just for that need, but they don't really get any other authority.
    - pm90 5y ago
      Interesting. I always wondered why Senior level engineers at banks got the VP title. It seemed odd for someone formerly an IC to suddenly step into a VP level role, but this makes sense now.
      - ledauphin 5y ago
        but does it? are these software engineers actually making loans?
        lmm 5y ago
        No, but there are people at that level in the company who need to sign those contracts (I don't think it's loans specifically), and it's easiest to use a consistent title for everyone at that level.
      - rpmisms 5y ago
        My Father-in-law is a VP at a banking firm, he's just a senior engineer, but he does handle plenty of financials. Makes total sense why he's a VP.
- 5y ago
66antigravity 5y ago
Mostly agree, but how about a person (lets say like me) who would like to offer skills in exchange for a great salary and thats it? No need for challenging problems, just the autonomy and time - thats what I would care about the most (and € ofc). Personal motto: work for living, not live to work. Therefore: screw those titles.
drivebycomment 5y ago
All the things you mentioned important to you are indeed important stuff, and you are not wrong to prioritize them. But that doesn't mean you should completely ignore the title. Think of the title as giving you more freedom to choose. By completely ignoring, you are potentially missing the extra freedom you can have in choosing your problem and team. So, I would agree you don't want to chase a title, but as a secondary nice-to-have goal, it absolutely is worth considering.
fifilura 5y ago
While I fully agree with your sentiment, are you by any chance privileged white male? Quote from TFA "For those in an underrepresented group, titles make a world of difference in establishing credibility."
mvc 5y ago
Haha, I tried to do this and it was working great until I got sacked.
didntknowya 5y ago
idk to me salary determines the level. you can't really "down level" when you get paid more. titles doesn't matter. I know for a fact a lot of people with "manager" are paid significantly less than me with my bland title, but it lets everyone sleep at night so all is well.

by vbtemp 5y ago

nine_zeros 5y ago

A link to the reddit post would benefit an audience like me

vbtemp 5y ago
https://www.reddit.com/r/ExperiencedDevs/comments/nnw7yd/sober_post_things_ive_learned_downleveling_my/ https://www.reddit.com/r/ExperiencedDevs/comments/nnw7yd/sob... It's a little cheeky and at times a little hyperbolic, but I stand by it.
- nine_zeros 5y ago
  I agree with every single point

rizzaxc 5y ago

I mean at the end of the day the title is only to feed your own ego. At family gathering nobody's gonna ask you why you were Principal and now you're Staff. I find no difference between being called a "Director" or a "Manager", because the title alone tells me absolutely nothing Reminds me of American Psycho, where everybody is a damn Vice President (reflective of the time)

pedrosorio 5y ago
> Reminds me of American Psycho, where everybody is a damn Vice President (reflective of the time) Reflective of the industry, really. It’s still that way in banking.
- bluGill 5y ago
  Vice President has legal meaning as a title. Only a vice president or above can make some loans. Since banks make those loans all the time they need a lot of vice presidents to do it. In a small town bank with at most 10 people it makes sense, but for a large banks with branches all over the country you end up with a ton of vice presidents just for that need, but they don't really get any other authority.
  - pm90 5y ago
    Interesting. I always wondered why Senior level engineers at banks got the VP title. It seemed odd for someone formerly an IC to suddenly step into a VP level role, but this makes sense now.
    - ledauphin 5y ago
      but does it? are these software engineers actually making loans?
      - lmm 5y ago
        No, but there are people at that level in the company who need to sign those contracts (I don't think it's loans specifically), and it's easiest to use a consistent title for everyone at that level.
    - rpmisms 5y ago
      My Father-in-law is a VP at a banking firm, he's just a senior engineer, but he does handle plenty of financials. Makes total sense why he's a VP.
5y ago

66antigravity 5y ago

Mostly agree, but how about a person (lets say like me) who would like to offer skills in exchange for a great salary and thats it? No need for challenging problems, just the autonomy and time - thats what I would care about the most (and € ofc). Personal motto: work for living, not live to work. Therefore: screw those titles.

drivebycomment 5y ago

All the things you mentioned important to you are indeed important stuff, and you are not wrong to prioritize them. But that doesn't mean you should completely ignore the title. Think of the title as giving you more freedom to choose. By completely ignoring, you are potentially missing the extra freedom you can have in choosing your problem and team. So, I would agree you don't want to chase a title, but as a secondary nice-to-have goal, it absolutely is worth considering.

fifilura 5y ago

While I fully agree with your sentiment, are you by any chance privileged white male? Quote from TFA "For those in an underrepresented group, titles make a world of difference in establishing credibility."

mvc 5y ago

Haha, I tried to do this and it was working great until I got sacked.

didntknowya 5y ago

idk to me salary determines the level. you can't really "down level" when you get paid more. titles doesn't matter. I know for a fact a lot of people with "manager" are paid significantly less than me with my bland title, but it lets everyone sleep at night so all is well.