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It’s odd how you only view the issue from the “point of view” you created from thin air. Maybe try to take a step back, remove underlying assumptions, and learn

It’s odd how you only view the issue from the “point of view” you created from thin air. Maybe try to take a step back, remove underlying assumptions, and learn how things are playing out in the real world. Excelon is a publicly traded, for-profit company. They operate as a utility and have $30 billion+ annual revenue. [1] Unlike all the other utilities in Illinois, they continually come to taxpayers asking for bailouts. Maybe it’s just them, or maybe the government is at fault, maybe there is another factor. Either way, it seems that many pro-nuclear folks on HN simply ignore the real world costs in favor of ideological (or “gotcha”) arguments. [1] https://www.google.com/finance/quote/EXC:NASDAQ https://www.google.com/finance/quote/EXC:NASDAQ

graderjs 5y ago
Well you know the real, but I don't see you coming up with any solutions. > $30 billion+ revenue That's revenue. What's the profit? It's not going to work unless you let people make money. I'm not pro-nuclear. I'm not anti. I don't have skin in the game, and yeah, I don't know anything about this. Or your particular situation. But maybe that outsider perspective is something you need. I'm just thinking. About systems and how to make this efficient. Maybe you should try that too. But yea, those bailouts you mentioned, they're for unprofitable plants in Byron and Dresden. So don't pay them, and let them fail. So what? Get elec from gas. It's cheaper anyway. Or, factor in the cost of emissions, and pay the nuke guys more for making clean. Either way it's not the fucking company's problem of not being able to manage it. It seems like it's the state's issue of not being able to allocate its resources properly, and letting itself fall in the trap of politicizing and blame pointing, rather than solution finding. It's not the companies responsibility to run the plant at a loss. That's the state's got to solve that problem. This is a fucking non-issue. The plant has power that's too expensive: So let it die. Oh, but it's good power, it can't die: So keep it alive. Problem solved. Either way, it's not gonna help if you pretend, "Oh I'm such a big expert, I'm so right about this and non one else is," right? That's not gonna help. You got angry at me 'cause I had some idea about this. It's not my fault--No point blaming anyone else or angry at me--it's your (IL, Chicago, politicians' and peoples') responsibility to fix this. It's not mine. I just had an idea. And it's a pretty good idea too: Let the fucking market decide, don't get bogged down.
- long_time_gone 5y ago
  ==That's revenue. What's the profit? It's not going to work unless you let people make money.== Instead of looking it up, you have decided to create a new strawman argument. Excelon had net income of $1.9 billion in 2020, $2.9 billion in 2019, and $2.0 billion in 2018. https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/EXC/financials?p=EXC https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/EXC/financials?p=EXC ==But yea, those bailouts you mentioned, they're for unprofitable plants in Byron and Dresden. So don't pay them, and let them fail. So what? Get elec from gas. It's cheaper anyway. Or, factor in the cost of emissions, and pay the nuke guys more for making clean.== These are gigantic plants that employ loads of people (entire towns) and deliver electricity to millions. Excelon takes advantage of this political realty by threatening to shutdown the plants every few years without a state bailout. ==You got angry at me 'cause I had some idea about this. It's not my fault--No point blaming anyone else or angry at me--it's your (IL, Chicago, politicians' and peoples') responsibility to fix this. It's not mine. I just had an idea. And it's a pretty good idea too: Let the fucking market decide, don't get bogged down.== Is this a serious response? I "got angry at you" by responding to your comment and adding real-world examples? Sorry for hurting your feelings. This is all a distraction from the main point. Illinois gets the highest percentage of energy from nuclear (54%) of all US states. At the same time, the nuclear operator has to continually come back to the state for bailouts. This does not square with what I hear from the "pro-nuke" crowd (high initial costs, low ongoing costs). I am simply asking for an explanation of why that wouldn't happen on a larger level if we invest more heavily in nuclear as a country.
  - graderjs 5y ago
    > Instead of looking it up, you have decided to create a new strawman argument. Excelon had net income of $1.9 billion in 2020, $2.9 billion in 2019, and $2.0 billion in 2018. That's not what I said. I asked where was the profit? The strawman is your pretending that overall profit, just erases the need to have profitable individual plants. Which is precisely the point you are wailing about: the shut down of Byron and Dresden, because they will become unprofitable. You frame it as, "Excelon takes advantage of this political realty by threatening to shutdown the plants every few years without a state bailout." but the reality is the plants will lose money without charging more for their electricity. I mean, the state is buying the electricity, the plants have been audited, they're not rorting you guys--who do you think should foot the bill? It's theft to just expect Exelon to subsidize you. But, like I said, you don't have to pay them. > Is this a serious response? I "got angry at you" by responding to your comment and adding real-world examples? Sorry for hurting your feelings. Yeah, totally serious. You didn't think it was serious? Are you really saying you didn't get angry at my initial comment? And then set out to attack me in what you were saying? You should never apologize for what you're not responsible for. You're not responsible for my feelings. If you think you should apologize, just apologize for whatever you did: your choices and actions. That's a general point. But specifically...You didn't hurt me feelings. You couldn't hurt me feelings, but I'm saying, that's how you came here, with anger. Am I wrong? "Illinois gets the highest percentage of energy from nuclear (54%) of all US states. At the same time, the nuclear operator has to continually come back to the state for bailouts." When their plants make money, it's not a bailout. It's a price rise, right? Why so averse to paying it? Or just letting them die. If anyone is to blame for becoming dependent on the operator, it's the state. I think your anger about this is misplaced toward Exelon, probably because that's the story your politicians tell and they'd rather you hate Exelon than them? " I am simply asking for an explanation of why that wouldn't happen on a larger level if we invest more heavily in nuclear as a country." Well the real question is, are you ready to hear an explanation? Anyway, I don't owe you an explanation, and there's no point saying one that won't be well received--you guys have to figure this out for yourselves--but, since you're asking so nicely--;p ;) xx--I think there need to be brutal choices. If you got in deep with a shark that you feel is playing you or price-gouging, or even just (another way of saying), you didn't diversify your suppliers and now feel their cost is too high, I mean, what can you do? You just have diversify away to other suppliers? It will be brutal, but it has to be done, to avoid this. Or you have to accept--and somehow find the money for--the higher price. Or if you think you can run the plant at a lower cost, then somehow do that--maybe convince the government to nationalize the plants, and then run them as a state-owned utility...but, sadly, I have doubts that would result in price cuts. Unless you walk away from the table, Exelon has little incentive to find ways to cut costs. I suppose they know they've got you over a barrel if you can't shop around. So I suppose you guys need to figure out how to get off that barrel? :p ;) xx

graderjs 5y ago

Well you know the real, but I don't see you coming up with any solutions. > $30 billion+ revenue That's revenue. What's the profit? It's not going to work unless you let people make money. I'm not pro-nuclear. I'm not anti. I don't have skin in the game, and yeah, I don't know anything about this. Or your particular situation. But maybe that outsider perspective is something you need. I'm just thinking. About systems and how to make this efficient. Maybe you should try that too. But yea, those bailouts you mentioned, they're for unprofitable plants in Byron and Dresden. So don't pay them, and let them fail. So what? Get elec from gas. It's cheaper anyway. Or, factor in the cost of emissions, and pay the nuke guys more for making clean. Either way it's not the fucking company's problem of not being able to manage it. It seems like it's the state's issue of not being able to allocate its resources properly, and letting itself fall in the trap of politicizing and blame pointing, rather than solution finding. It's not the companies responsibility to run the plant at a loss. That's the state's got to solve that problem. This is a fucking non-issue. The plant has power that's too expensive: So let it die. Oh, but it's good power, it can't die: So keep it alive. Problem solved. Either way, it's not gonna help if you pretend, "Oh I'm such a big expert, I'm so right about this and non one else is," right? That's not gonna help. You got angry at me 'cause I had some idea about this. It's not my fault--No point blaming anyone else or angry at me--it's your (IL, Chicago, politicians' and peoples') responsibility to fix this. It's not mine. I just had an idea. And it's a pretty good idea too: Let the fucking market decide, don't get bogged down.

long_time_gone 5y ago
==That's revenue. What's the profit? It's not going to work unless you let people make money.== Instead of looking it up, you have decided to create a new strawman argument. Excelon had net income of $1.9 billion in 2020, $2.9 billion in 2019, and $2.0 billion in 2018. https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/EXC/financials?p=EXC https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/EXC/financials?p=EXC ==But yea, those bailouts you mentioned, they're for unprofitable plants in Byron and Dresden. So don't pay them, and let them fail. So what? Get elec from gas. It's cheaper anyway. Or, factor in the cost of emissions, and pay the nuke guys more for making clean.== These are gigantic plants that employ loads of people (entire towns) and deliver electricity to millions. Excelon takes advantage of this political realty by threatening to shutdown the plants every few years without a state bailout. ==You got angry at me 'cause I had some idea about this. It's not my fault--No point blaming anyone else or angry at me--it's your (IL, Chicago, politicians' and peoples') responsibility to fix this. It's not mine. I just had an idea. And it's a pretty good idea too: Let the fucking market decide, don't get bogged down.== Is this a serious response? I "got angry at you" by responding to your comment and adding real-world examples? Sorry for hurting your feelings. This is all a distraction from the main point. Illinois gets the highest percentage of energy from nuclear (54%) of all US states. At the same time, the nuclear operator has to continually come back to the state for bailouts. This does not square with what I hear from the "pro-nuke" crowd (high initial costs, low ongoing costs). I am simply asking for an explanation of why that wouldn't happen on a larger level if we invest more heavily in nuclear as a country.
- graderjs 5y ago
  > Instead of looking it up, you have decided to create a new strawman argument. Excelon had net income of $1.9 billion in 2020, $2.9 billion in 2019, and $2.0 billion in 2018. That's not what I said. I asked where was the profit? The strawman is your pretending that overall profit, just erases the need to have profitable individual plants. Which is precisely the point you are wailing about: the shut down of Byron and Dresden, because they will become unprofitable. You frame it as, "Excelon takes advantage of this political realty by threatening to shutdown the plants every few years without a state bailout." but the reality is the plants will lose money without charging more for their electricity. I mean, the state is buying the electricity, the plants have been audited, they're not rorting you guys--who do you think should foot the bill? It's theft to just expect Exelon to subsidize you. But, like I said, you don't have to pay them. > Is this a serious response? I "got angry at you" by responding to your comment and adding real-world examples? Sorry for hurting your feelings. Yeah, totally serious. You didn't think it was serious? Are you really saying you didn't get angry at my initial comment? And then set out to attack me in what you were saying? You should never apologize for what you're not responsible for. You're not responsible for my feelings. If you think you should apologize, just apologize for whatever you did: your choices and actions. That's a general point. But specifically...You didn't hurt me feelings. You couldn't hurt me feelings, but I'm saying, that's how you came here, with anger. Am I wrong? "Illinois gets the highest percentage of energy from nuclear (54%) of all US states. At the same time, the nuclear operator has to continually come back to the state for bailouts." When their plants make money, it's not a bailout. It's a price rise, right? Why so averse to paying it? Or just letting them die. If anyone is to blame for becoming dependent on the operator, it's the state. I think your anger about this is misplaced toward Exelon, probably because that's the story your politicians tell and they'd rather you hate Exelon than them? " I am simply asking for an explanation of why that wouldn't happen on a larger level if we invest more heavily in nuclear as a country." Well the real question is, are you ready to hear an explanation? Anyway, I don't owe you an explanation, and there's no point saying one that won't be well received--you guys have to figure this out for yourselves--but, since you're asking so nicely--;p ;) xx--I think there need to be brutal choices. If you got in deep with a shark that you feel is playing you or price-gouging, or even just (another way of saying), you didn't diversify your suppliers and now feel their cost is too high, I mean, what can you do? You just have diversify away to other suppliers? It will be brutal, but it has to be done, to avoid this. Or you have to accept--and somehow find the money for--the higher price. Or if you think you can run the plant at a lower cost, then somehow do that--maybe convince the government to nationalize the plants, and then run them as a state-owned utility...but, sadly, I have doubts that would result in price cuts. Unless you walk away from the table, Exelon has little incentive to find ways to cut costs. I suppose they know they've got you over a barrel if you can't shop around. So I suppose you guys need to figure out how to get off that barrel? :p ;) xx