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I'm sorry, I have extreme doubt to what extent these anecdotes are true and have no choice but to reject them when there's no corroborating evidence. In my exp

I'm sorry, I have extreme doubt to what extent these anecdotes are true and have no choice but to reject them when there's no corroborating evidence. In my experience, I see about 100x as many people trying to shame folk with the "brexit=racist xenophobe" brush than I witness actual incidents of such behaviour. At the end of the day it is all anecdotes from people who have an ideological axe to grind. I'd be more interested to see actual data that suggests any permanent effect - like changes in all the many studies into the tolerance of countries towards immigrants, or even a substantial increase of hate crimes - but so far all that is strangely lacking and all we are left with is anecdotes.

thefounder 5y ago
There are centainly some racist/xenophobe people and they were pretty loud during and after the Brexit campaign. However the main issue is that the mainstream leadership took cues from them and the dialog about immigration has changed. Now it's pretty much native vs immigrants, England vs Europe. It's no longer a family/love story. "Once Britain is free of the EU’s shackles, there’s nothing it cannot achieve". This kind of slogans extend to simple immigrants as well because "they" are the reason UK is no longer an empire...(so they said).
mmarq 5y ago
It is not clear what “ideological axe to grind” I or my friend may have nor why we should make up anecdotes. Convincing you or anybody on this site of anything doesn’t advance any item on my agenda. Said that, is police data enough evidence? https://news.npcc.police.uk/releases/hate-crime-undermines-the-diversity-and-tolerance-we-should-instead-be-celebrating-1 https://news.npcc.police.uk/releases/hate-crime-undermines-t... > National Police Chiefs’ Council Lead for Hate Crime, Assistant Chief Constable Mark Hamilton said: “We now have a clear indication of the increases in the reporting of hate crime nationally and can see that there has been a sharp rise in recent weeks. This is unacceptable and it undermines the diversity and tolerance we should instead be celebrating. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/brexit-race-hate-crime-eu-referendum-met-police-a7121401.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/brexit-race-hate... You don’t have to reply, if you think the police are all crazy leftists who hate brexiters.
- JetSetWilly 5y ago
  Those are all in the few weeks since 2016 referendum. It was not a sustained increase, and further it was in a period of national hysteria following the vote when such issues were common currency. 2021 hate crimes are not above those of eg 2014 so I fail to see how the UK has become some xenophobic country.
  - mmarq 5y ago
    I should remind you that this started with you saying I was making up anecdotes because I had an ideological axe to grind. Now you are moving the target. Before we go there, would you admit that the Brexit referendum caused an increase of xenophobic incidents now that we have proof that it did?
    - JetSetWilly 5y ago
      I would say that a transient spike 5 years ago is not enough to make the case that the country has had some fundamental and permanent attitude shift post-Brexit. However, you are right that it does lend credence to complaints around the referendum period that it was a difficult time. But I am still reluctant to draw long term conclusions from that.
      - gpderetta 5y ago
        https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-8537/CBP-8537.pdf https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-... There was a peak after the referendum, but there is also a long term trend. The cause of the trend can't all be attributed to brexit though (the causality might be reversed for example).

thefounder 5y ago

There are centainly some racist/xenophobe people and they were pretty loud during and after the Brexit campaign. However the main issue is that the mainstream leadership took cues from them and the dialog about immigration has changed. Now it's pretty much native vs immigrants, England vs Europe. It's no longer a family/love story. "Once Britain is free of the EU’s shackles, there’s nothing it cannot achieve". This kind of slogans extend to simple immigrants as well because "they" are the reason UK is no longer an empire...(so they said).

mmarq 5y ago

It is not clear what “ideological axe to grind” I or my friend may have nor why we should make up anecdotes. Convincing you or anybody on this site of anything doesn’t advance any item on my agenda. Said that, is police data enough evidence? https://news.npcc.police.uk/releases/hate-crime-undermines-the-diversity-and-tolerance-we-should-instead-be-celebrating-1 https://news.npcc.police.uk/releases/hate-crime-undermines-t... > National Police Chiefs’ Council Lead for Hate Crime, Assistant Chief Constable Mark Hamilton said: “We now have a clear indication of the increases in the reporting of hate crime nationally and can see that there has been a sharp rise in recent weeks. This is unacceptable and it undermines the diversity and tolerance we should instead be celebrating. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/brexit-race-hate-crime-eu-referendum-met-police-a7121401.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/brexit-race-hate... You don’t have to reply, if you think the police are all crazy leftists who hate brexiters.

JetSetWilly 5y ago
Those are all in the few weeks since 2016 referendum. It was not a sustained increase, and further it was in a period of national hysteria following the vote when such issues were common currency. 2021 hate crimes are not above those of eg 2014 so I fail to see how the UK has become some xenophobic country.
- mmarq 5y ago
  I should remind you that this started with you saying I was making up anecdotes because I had an ideological axe to grind. Now you are moving the target. Before we go there, would you admit that the Brexit referendum caused an increase of xenophobic incidents now that we have proof that it did?
  - JetSetWilly 5y ago
    I would say that a transient spike 5 years ago is not enough to make the case that the country has had some fundamental and permanent attitude shift post-Brexit. However, you are right that it does lend credence to complaints around the referendum period that it was a difficult time. But I am still reluctant to draw long term conclusions from that.
    - gpderetta 5y ago
      https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-8537/CBP-8537.pdf https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-... There was a peak after the referendum, but there is also a long term trend. The cause of the trend can't all be attributed to brexit though (the causality might be reversed for example).