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> The UK is easily among the most tolerant and least racist of European countries. In international studies, the UK scores very highly on all such measures, usu

by mmarq 5y ago

> The UK is easily among the most tolerant and least racist of European countries. In international studies, the UK scores very highly on all such measures, usually much better than continental European countries. The point is not that the British society is more or less tolerant than the Italian society (and it certainly is more tolerant). The problem is that as a European I’ve never experienced xenophobia until 2016, while for some years after that every single Briton I talked to felt entitled to share with me some uneducated opinions about immigration and about my immigration status. These would range from some form of “you are a good migrant (sic) so you can stay”, to “only English people should live in England”. Some friends and colleagues, especially women who mixed with locals from the lower classes, have experienced more extreme forms of xenophobia, such as a doctor friend who stopped working outside of London because half of her patients were telling her to go back to her country (she was already naturalised then) on a daily basis. The locals trying to burn European flags (and failing miserably) weren’t really sending a welcome message. Edit: poor migrant fix typoz

JetSetWilly 5y ago
I'm sorry, I have extreme doubt to what extent these anecdotes are true and have no choice but to reject them when there's no corroborating evidence. In my experience, I see about 100x as many people trying to shame folk with the "brexit=racist xenophobe" brush than I witness actual incidents of such behaviour. At the end of the day it is all anecdotes from people who have an ideological axe to grind. I'd be more interested to see actual data that suggests any permanent effect - like changes in all the many studies into the tolerance of countries towards immigrants, or even a substantial increase of hate crimes - but so far all that is strangely lacking and all we are left with is anecdotes.
- thefounder 5y ago
  There are centainly some racist/xenophobe people and they were pretty loud during and after the Brexit campaign. However the main issue is that the mainstream leadership took cues from them and the dialog about immigration has changed. Now it's pretty much native vs immigrants, England vs Europe. It's no longer a family/love story. "Once Britain is free of the EU’s shackles, there’s nothing it cannot achieve". This kind of slogans extend to simple immigrants as well because "they" are the reason UK is no longer an empire...(so they said).
- mmarq 5y ago
  It is not clear what “ideological axe to grind” I or my friend may have nor why we should make up anecdotes. Convincing you or anybody on this site of anything doesn’t advance any item on my agenda. Said that, is police data enough evidence? https://news.npcc.police.uk/releases/hate-crime-undermines-the-diversity-and-tolerance-we-should-instead-be-celebrating-1 https://news.npcc.police.uk/releases/hate-crime-undermines-t... > National Police Chiefs’ Council Lead for Hate Crime, Assistant Chief Constable Mark Hamilton said: “We now have a clear indication of the increases in the reporting of hate crime nationally and can see that there has been a sharp rise in recent weeks. This is unacceptable and it undermines the diversity and tolerance we should instead be celebrating. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/brexit-race-hate-crime-eu-referendum-met-police-a7121401.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/brexit-race-hate... You don’t have to reply, if you think the police are all crazy leftists who hate brexiters.
  - JetSetWilly 5y ago
    Those are all in the few weeks since 2016 referendum. It was not a sustained increase, and further it was in a period of national hysteria following the vote when such issues were common currency. 2021 hate crimes are not above those of eg 2014 so I fail to see how the UK has become some xenophobic country.
    - mmarq 5y ago
      I should remind you that this started with you saying I was making up anecdotes because I had an ideological axe to grind. Now you are moving the target. Before we go there, would you admit that the Brexit referendum caused an increase of xenophobic incidents now that we have proof that it did?
      - JetSetWilly 5y ago
        I would say that a transient spike 5 years ago is not enough to make the case that the country has had some fundamental and permanent attitude shift post-Brexit. However, you are right that it does lend credence to complaints around the referendum period that it was a difficult time. But I am still reluctant to draw long term conclusions from that.

by mmarq 5y ago

JetSetWilly 5y ago

I'm sorry, I have extreme doubt to what extent these anecdotes are true and have no choice but to reject them when there's no corroborating evidence. In my experience, I see about 100x as many people trying to shame folk with the "brexit=racist xenophobe" brush than I witness actual incidents of such behaviour. At the end of the day it is all anecdotes from people who have an ideological axe to grind. I'd be more interested to see actual data that suggests any permanent effect - like changes in all the many studies into the tolerance of countries towards immigrants, or even a substantial increase of hate crimes - but so far all that is strangely lacking and all we are left with is anecdotes.

thefounder 5y ago
There are centainly some racist/xenophobe people and they were pretty loud during and after the Brexit campaign. However the main issue is that the mainstream leadership took cues from them and the dialog about immigration has changed. Now it's pretty much native vs immigrants, England vs Europe. It's no longer a family/love story. "Once Britain is free of the EU’s shackles, there’s nothing it cannot achieve". This kind of slogans extend to simple immigrants as well because "they" are the reason UK is no longer an empire...(so they said).
mmarq 5y ago
It is not clear what “ideological axe to grind” I or my friend may have nor why we should make up anecdotes. Convincing you or anybody on this site of anything doesn’t advance any item on my agenda. Said that, is police data enough evidence? https://news.npcc.police.uk/releases/hate-crime-undermines-the-diversity-and-tolerance-we-should-instead-be-celebrating-1 https://news.npcc.police.uk/releases/hate-crime-undermines-t... > National Police Chiefs’ Council Lead for Hate Crime, Assistant Chief Constable Mark Hamilton said: “We now have a clear indication of the increases in the reporting of hate crime nationally and can see that there has been a sharp rise in recent weeks. This is unacceptable and it undermines the diversity and tolerance we should instead be celebrating. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/brexit-race-hate-crime-eu-referendum-met-police-a7121401.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/brexit-race-hate... You don’t have to reply, if you think the police are all crazy leftists who hate brexiters.
- JetSetWilly 5y ago
  Those are all in the few weeks since 2016 referendum. It was not a sustained increase, and further it was in a period of national hysteria following the vote when such issues were common currency. 2021 hate crimes are not above those of eg 2014 so I fail to see how the UK has become some xenophobic country.
  - mmarq 5y ago
    I should remind you that this started with you saying I was making up anecdotes because I had an ideological axe to grind. Now you are moving the target. Before we go there, would you admit that the Brexit referendum caused an increase of xenophobic incidents now that we have proof that it did?
    - JetSetWilly 5y ago
      I would say that a transient spike 5 years ago is not enough to make the case that the country has had some fundamental and permanent attitude shift post-Brexit. However, you are right that it does lend credence to complaints around the referendum period that it was a difficult time. But I am still reluctant to draw long term conclusions from that.