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Could you expand on this a bit: "- Rust (the Rick & Morty of programming languages - not a compliment)"? Rick&Morty being a very long going (and excellent) par

by fsloth 5y ago

Could you expand on this a bit: "- Rust (the Rick & Morty of programming languages - not a compliment)"? Rick&Morty being a very long going (and excellent) parody version of Back To The Future franchise I'm not sure what qualities this characterization imbues on a programming language and would like to hear your views on the matter (since I found your analysis of C# very much agreeable).

t8sr 5y ago
Honestly, I don’t feel qualified to evaluate Rust. At face value, it seems like a good replacement for C++, but I’ve never successfully used it for anything larger than a toy. That’s probably mostly on me. My comment was referring to the impression that people who like Rust seem to think that you either also accept Rust as the best thing ever, or you don’t get it. I probably shouldn’t have mentioned it, because now the thread will be about Rust.
- arethuza 5y ago
  "people who like Rust seem to think that you either also accept Rust as the best thing ever, or you don’t get it" I don't think Rust is in any way unique in having people who think that way...
  - martincmartin 5y ago
    "There are only two kinds of languages: the ones people complain about and the ones nobody uses." -- Bjarne Stroustrup https://www.stroustrup.com/quotes.html#:~:text=%22There%20are%20only%20two%20kinds,and%20the%20ones%20nobody%20uses%22 https://www.stroustrup.com/quotes.html#:~:text=%22There%20ar....
  - chakkepolja 5y ago
    It has got so many people from ruby and js crowds so there will be statistically more of them.
  - t8sr 5y ago
    Probably not, but it's a question of degree. The projects I work on don't get monthly requests to drop everything and rewrite them in Haskell/Clojure/Go but we do get them for Rust. An anecdote: I recently opened a position on my team, and got two applicants on the same day who ignored the project description, and basically said we should hire them to tell us how everything we do could be better if we rewrote multiple projects in Rust. Of course it's completely possible for a programming language to be both (A) really well-designed and (B) have annoying people among its community. I suspect that's the case here.
    - BiteCode_dev 5y ago
      Every language that has a reputation of some kind purity in one or more characteristics (Haskell, Lisp, Rust) is bound to attract some people that values purity over practicality. It's not the case of the rust dev team, which seems very balanced. But I've met a few rust enthusiasts that match the worst of the fancy FP or Typing fan boys.
      - HKH2 5y ago
        Those Haskell people do talk a lot about purity.
        CRConrad 5y ago
        Of their precious bodily fluids?
        divs1210 5y ago
        Not sure why you're being downvoted. That is a brilliant reference to a brilliant movie.
    - zabatuvajdka 5y ago
      I personally have language fatigue after playing with various languages over two decades. The thing I hate about rust is abbreviated keywords like “fn” and “mut” because it sounds like fricken mutt. A function is a function not a fn, and is it really so hard to type “mutable”? There’s more important things in life to worry about than rewriting codebases in language Z.
  - HKH2 5y ago
    RIIR is a thing. Also, the Rust Evangelism Strikeforce. I love Rust, but I think it does go over the top, more so than other languages.
    - frenchy 5y ago
      Sure, but I think I've heard far more about RIIR and the Rust Evangelism Strikeforce than I've actually seen it in action.
    - mst 5y ago
      It definitely is a thing, but those people are spending their time being loud and annoying while other people are quietly releasing libraries and shipping products. Also, give it a few years and the loud and annoying people will have moved on to being loud and annoying about something else. So it goes.
  - mumblemumble 5y ago
    It's true, Rust is just the most recent inductee into that clique. But it seems to work kind of like the Sith: there are never more than two that are really active at any one time.
    - skyde 5y ago
      Rust is not perfect and will never replace language like c# go or python. But it’s the first language that is a true replacement for c++ because it can do everything c++ can do but in a type-safe and thread-safe way.
      - benibela 5y ago
        It can't do exceptions or inheritance It is more a C replacement
        nrr 5y ago
        Is inheritance really that critical a language feature?
        tialaramex 5y ago
        Rust also can't overload operator&& and lacks the "macro pre-processor" that was already a bad idea in the 1970s. Absence of specific footguns is not something people will mourn. To the extent that you should have exceptions in your software, Rust's panic picks that slack up pretty well, and to the extent you should have error handling C++ exceptions were a bad idea and sum types like Result are much better. Note that although Rust's types don't have inheritance the traits they can implement do. Which is much more likely to be something you actually wanted than say, C++ multiple inheritance.
        int_19h 5y ago
        It can do flow-through error handling and code reuse. Exceptions and inheritance are just two particular ways to achieve those goals.
      - mbrodersen 5y ago
  - bitwize 5y ago
    I have a very similar problem. Lisp is so compatible with the way I work, and I'm so productive in it, that I'd rather use it for everything -- even a simple Scheme implementation that lacks things like CL's condition system or "update all instances when a struct or class definition changes" magic. So I have a tendency to be very squarely within Smug Lisp Weenie territory when comparatively discussing PLs.
127 5y ago
Well, I personally enjoy using Rust, but Rick & Morty is in my humble opinion awful. Pretty much the poster boy for the "I'm so smart and witty" crowd. Rust is the good kind of smart. Actual functional solutions to difficult problems. R&M is the cringe-worthy kind of smart. Built specifically to please the viewers personal ego.
- stjohnswarts 5y ago
  Dismissing people who enjoy Rick and Morty just because of an internet meme is kind of intellectually dishonest and falling for the same sort of limited thinking. I assure you the vast majority people just enjoy the show and don't feel superior to you because they enjoy it.
  - 127 5y ago
    It's really more about how cynical and calculative the entire show is to manipulate the fragile ego of its target audience. And also: this is just my opinion. I'm not presenting it as some immutable truth.
woodrowbarlow 5y ago
both have fanbases with a very outspoken subset who come across as obnoxious because of their blind, proselytizing devotion without much substance. unfortunately, this subset of the fanbase is the dominantly visible component to outsiders.
bitwize 5y ago
It's a reference to the "To be fair, you have to have a very high IQ to understand Rick and Morty" meme. GP was probably referring to RESF style advocacy, which divides the world into smart people who obviously know that Rust is the right thing, and smoothbrains who have stubbornly resisted conversion.

by fsloth 5y ago

t8sr 5y ago

Honestly, I don’t feel qualified to evaluate Rust. At face value, it seems like a good replacement for C++, but I’ve never successfully used it for anything larger than a toy. That’s probably mostly on me. My comment was referring to the impression that people who like Rust seem to think that you either also accept Rust as the best thing ever, or you don’t get it. I probably shouldn’t have mentioned it, because now the thread will be about Rust.

arethuza 5y ago
"people who like Rust seem to think that you either also accept Rust as the best thing ever, or you don’t get it" I don't think Rust is in any way unique in having people who think that way...
- martincmartin 5y ago
  "There are only two kinds of languages: the ones people complain about and the ones nobody uses." -- Bjarne Stroustrup https://www.stroustrup.com/quotes.html#:~:text=%22There%20are%20only%20two%20kinds,and%20the%20ones%20nobody%20uses%22 https://www.stroustrup.com/quotes.html#:~:text=%22There%20ar....
- chakkepolja 5y ago
  It has got so many people from ruby and js crowds so there will be statistically more of them.
- t8sr 5y ago
  Probably not, but it's a question of degree. The projects I work on don't get monthly requests to drop everything and rewrite them in Haskell/Clojure/Go but we do get them for Rust. An anecdote: I recently opened a position on my team, and got two applicants on the same day who ignored the project description, and basically said we should hire them to tell us how everything we do could be better if we rewrote multiple projects in Rust. Of course it's completely possible for a programming language to be both (A) really well-designed and (B) have annoying people among its community. I suspect that's the case here.
  - BiteCode_dev 5y ago
    Every language that has a reputation of some kind purity in one or more characteristics (Haskell, Lisp, Rust) is bound to attract some people that values purity over practicality. It's not the case of the rust dev team, which seems very balanced. But I've met a few rust enthusiasts that match the worst of the fancy FP or Typing fan boys.
    - HKH2 5y ago
      Those Haskell people do talk a lot about purity.
      - CRConrad 5y ago
        Of their precious bodily fluids?
        divs1210 5y ago
        Not sure why you're being downvoted. That is a brilliant reference to a brilliant movie.
  - zabatuvajdka 5y ago
    I personally have language fatigue after playing with various languages over two decades. The thing I hate about rust is abbreviated keywords like “fn” and “mut” because it sounds like fricken mutt. A function is a function not a fn, and is it really so hard to type “mutable”? There’s more important things in life to worry about than rewriting codebases in language Z.
- HKH2 5y ago
  RIIR is a thing. Also, the Rust Evangelism Strikeforce. I love Rust, but I think it does go over the top, more so than other languages.
  - frenchy 5y ago
    Sure, but I think I've heard far more about RIIR and the Rust Evangelism Strikeforce than I've actually seen it in action.
  - mst 5y ago
    It definitely is a thing, but those people are spending their time being loud and annoying while other people are quietly releasing libraries and shipping products. Also, give it a few years and the loud and annoying people will have moved on to being loud and annoying about something else. So it goes.
- mumblemumble 5y ago
  It's true, Rust is just the most recent inductee into that clique. But it seems to work kind of like the Sith: there are never more than two that are really active at any one time.
  - skyde 5y ago
    Rust is not perfect and will never replace language like c# go or python. But it’s the first language that is a true replacement for c++ because it can do everything c++ can do but in a type-safe and thread-safe way.
    - benibela 5y ago
      It can't do exceptions or inheritance It is more a C replacement
      - nrr 5y ago
        Is inheritance really that critical a language feature?
      - tialaramex 5y ago
        Rust also can't overload operator&& and lacks the "macro pre-processor" that was already a bad idea in the 1970s. Absence of specific footguns is not something people will mourn. To the extent that you should have exceptions in your software, Rust's panic picks that slack up pretty well, and to the extent you should have error handling C++ exceptions were a bad idea and sum types like Result are much better. Note that although Rust's types don't have inheritance the traits they can implement do. Which is much more likely to be something you actually wanted than say, C++ multiple inheritance.
      - int_19h 5y ago
        It can do flow-through error handling and code reuse. Exceptions and inheritance are just two particular ways to achieve those goals.
    - mbrodersen 5y ago
- bitwize 5y ago
  I have a very similar problem. Lisp is so compatible with the way I work, and I'm so productive in it, that I'd rather use it for everything -- even a simple Scheme implementation that lacks things like CL's condition system or "update all instances when a struct or class definition changes" magic. So I have a tendency to be very squarely within Smug Lisp Weenie territory when comparatively discussing PLs.

127 5y ago

Well, I personally enjoy using Rust, but Rick & Morty is in my humble opinion awful. Pretty much the poster boy for the "I'm so smart and witty" crowd. Rust is the good kind of smart. Actual functional solutions to difficult problems. R&M is the cringe-worthy kind of smart. Built specifically to please the viewers personal ego.

stjohnswarts 5y ago
Dismissing people who enjoy Rick and Morty just because of an internet meme is kind of intellectually dishonest and falling for the same sort of limited thinking. I assure you the vast majority people just enjoy the show and don't feel superior to you because they enjoy it.
- 127 5y ago
  It's really more about how cynical and calculative the entire show is to manipulate the fragile ego of its target audience. And also: this is just my opinion. I'm not presenting it as some immutable truth.

woodrowbarlow 5y ago

both have fanbases with a very outspoken subset who come across as obnoxious because of their blind, proselytizing devotion without much substance. unfortunately, this subset of the fanbase is the dominantly visible component to outsiders.

bitwize 5y ago

It's a reference to the "To be fair, you have to have a very high IQ to understand Rick and Morty" meme. GP was probably referring to RESF style advocacy, which divides the world into smart people who obviously know that Rust is the right thing, and smoothbrains who have stubbornly resisted conversion.