4 ms·

A couple of counterpoints (offered in good faith): > - the UK needs the import/export flow it was used to pre-brexit to keep their current life style. That is

by bb123 5y ago

A couple of counterpoints (offered in good faith): > - the UK needs the import/export flow it was used to pre-brexit to keep their current life style. That is about goods, which are totally separate to immigration. > - the current british population doesn't seem very motivation to take back the job they delegated to immigration. Motivation has nothing to do with it. The employers offering these shitty jobs have gotten used to being able to pay poor wages to cheap imported labour. They need to pay more, and the jobs will be filled. Look at the wage growth of truck drivers as an example. > - the UK education system sucks. Disagree here. The UK punches way above its weight in terms of high end education institutions per capita (trailing only the US) The UK also has more STEM grads per capita than any European country.

BiteCode_dev 5y ago
I'll upvote you because I love people being civil on HN. > That is about goods, which are totally separate to immigration. Yes, but you need trucks, boats, and loaders for those. A lot of the people dealing with that are immigrants. > The employers offering these shitty jobs have gotten used to being able to pay poor wages to cheap imported labour. Working in agriculture as always been low paid back breaking work. There were no "good old time". We are just not used anymore to have a part of our own population is been used as semi-slave and shutting up. Not saying it's a bad thing, we should strive to make for better working conditions. But those jobs still need to be done, and we don't have android doing them for now. It could go the Australian way, and make those jobs decently paid, but even there, immigrates still do those jobs! Not to mention their economy is sky rocketing so they can afford it. > The UK punches way above its weight in terms of high end education institutions per capita (trailing only the US) The UK also has more STEM grads per capita than any European country. The number are high yes, but the level of graduates is terrible. In fact, I got my diploma despite not handing out my final memoir or reaching the minimal passing grades. I spent a year drunk, and got a paper stating I studied hard and was worthy of my profession. And damn, most of my friends were even worst than me. Papers were a joke. Nothing was reproducible, arguments were barely holding together. Not to say my mates in French universities were geniuses, but the difference is glaring.
- bb123 5y ago
  I guess I would then argue that your points one and two are the same, and therefore have a similar fix - that the lack of labour imports will impact standard of living (either through logistics, farming, or other unskilled work) We need to pay more people to do these jobs, not rely on exploiting people from poorer nations to fill the gaps. I think the evidence suggests this is indeed happening. Wages are rising at their fastest rate on record. I think your suggestion of applying the Australian model to filling those vacancies is also a good one, but most of the people filling those jobs are tourists on extended holidays, not people looking to build a life in Australia. Working holiday visas require that you must work in service or agriculture, and the will kick you out when your time is up (I'm Australian so I've seen it happen to a number of my friends). I guess I can't disagree with your personal experiences at University, but I do suspect a lot of it comes down to the institution you attended. I studied at two universities in the UK and found them both academically rigourous.
  - BiteCode_dev 5y ago
    > We need to pay more people to do these jobs, not rely on exploiting people from poorer nations to fill the gaps. Agreed, but giving our consumption rate, it's going to be hard to do that and be competitive with a global market. Australia can pull that off because they are swimming in wealth right now, have a lot of land, and also because they have very favorable import rules they can maintain because the country produces a lot of basic goods. I doubt the UK can pull it off, but I'm not an oracle so let's see. > Wages are rising at their fastest rate on record. In Australia, yes. Again they have plenty of resources to go by right now. In the UK, I'm not sure how sustainable it would be. But I hope it will. Maybe the UK will prove to be the poster child for a successful economy after closing your borders. I doubt it, usually trades needs flexible borders, but I could be dead wrong, I'm not an economist. > Working holiday visas require that you must work in service or agriculture, and the will kick you out when your time is up Yes, but right now you can't even do that in the UK. > I guess I can't disagree with your personal experiences at University, but I do suspect a lot of it comes down to the institution you attended. I studied at two universities in the UK and found them both academically rigourous. It's not just universities, though. Just chatting with people of my age kinda scared me. They didn't handle basic geography, couldn't read subtext and were very sensitive to pandering. All in all, they had a very narrow-minded point of view compared to their belgium, german or irish counter parts. Of course, as soon as you reach business London, this changes. But that's true everywhere in the world. And although I understand arguments in favor of brexit, it's really hard to take the average brexiter seriously. They are the facebook anti-vax of politics, and I suspect their education system didn't help with that.

by bb123 5y ago

BiteCode_dev 5y ago

I'll upvote you because I love people being civil on HN. > That is about goods, which are totally separate to immigration. Yes, but you need trucks, boats, and loaders for those. A lot of the people dealing with that are immigrants. > The employers offering these shitty jobs have gotten used to being able to pay poor wages to cheap imported labour. Working in agriculture as always been low paid back breaking work. There were no "good old time". We are just not used anymore to have a part of our own population is been used as semi-slave and shutting up. Not saying it's a bad thing, we should strive to make for better working conditions. But those jobs still need to be done, and we don't have android doing them for now. It could go the Australian way, and make those jobs decently paid, but even there, immigrates still do those jobs! Not to mention their economy is sky rocketing so they can afford it. > The UK punches way above its weight in terms of high end education institutions per capita (trailing only the US) The UK also has more STEM grads per capita than any European country. The number are high yes, but the level of graduates is terrible. In fact, I got my diploma despite not handing out my final memoir or reaching the minimal passing grades. I spent a year drunk, and got a paper stating I studied hard and was worthy of my profession. And damn, most of my friends were even worst than me. Papers were a joke. Nothing was reproducible, arguments were barely holding together. Not to say my mates in French universities were geniuses, but the difference is glaring.

bb123 5y ago
I guess I would then argue that your points one and two are the same, and therefore have a similar fix - that the lack of labour imports will impact standard of living (either through logistics, farming, or other unskilled work) We need to pay more people to do these jobs, not rely on exploiting people from poorer nations to fill the gaps. I think the evidence suggests this is indeed happening. Wages are rising at their fastest rate on record. I think your suggestion of applying the Australian model to filling those vacancies is also a good one, but most of the people filling those jobs are tourists on extended holidays, not people looking to build a life in Australia. Working holiday visas require that you must work in service or agriculture, and the will kick you out when your time is up (I'm Australian so I've seen it happen to a number of my friends). I guess I can't disagree with your personal experiences at University, but I do suspect a lot of it comes down to the institution you attended. I studied at two universities in the UK and found them both academically rigourous.
- BiteCode_dev 5y ago
  > We need to pay more people to do these jobs, not rely on exploiting people from poorer nations to fill the gaps. Agreed, but giving our consumption rate, it's going to be hard to do that and be competitive with a global market. Australia can pull that off because they are swimming in wealth right now, have a lot of land, and also because they have very favorable import rules they can maintain because the country produces a lot of basic goods. I doubt the UK can pull it off, but I'm not an oracle so let's see. > Wages are rising at their fastest rate on record. In Australia, yes. Again they have plenty of resources to go by right now. In the UK, I'm not sure how sustainable it would be. But I hope it will. Maybe the UK will prove to be the poster child for a successful economy after closing your borders. I doubt it, usually trades needs flexible borders, but I could be dead wrong, I'm not an economist. > Working holiday visas require that you must work in service or agriculture, and the will kick you out when your time is up Yes, but right now you can't even do that in the UK. > I guess I can't disagree with your personal experiences at University, but I do suspect a lot of it comes down to the institution you attended. I studied at two universities in the UK and found them both academically rigourous. It's not just universities, though. Just chatting with people of my age kinda scared me. They didn't handle basic geography, couldn't read subtext and were very sensitive to pandering. All in all, they had a very narrow-minded point of view compared to their belgium, german or irish counter parts. Of course, as soon as you reach business London, this changes. But that's true everywhere in the world. And although I understand arguments in favor of brexit, it's really hard to take the average brexiter seriously. They are the facebook anti-vax of politics, and I suspect their education system didn't help with that.