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The UK Home Office has long had a 'hostile environment' [1] policy so what's changed is essentially its extension to a wider group of people (EU nationals). Wh

The UK Home Office has long had a 'hostile environment' [1] policy so what's changed is essentially its extension to a wider group of people (EU nationals). When you combine this approach with administrative incompetence (eg but not limited to Windrush [2] where people who legally had the right to stay were deported to countries where they had never lived as adults) you get some very unpleasant situations indeed. Not surprising at all that all this deters people from moving to the UK. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Home_Office_hostile_environment_policy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Home_Office_hostile_environmen... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windrush_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windrush_scandal

mytailorisrich 5y ago
From experience I don't think the UK is bad. It was very good before Brexit, now obviously people have to jump through a few hoops since there is no free movement with the EU anymore but it's not bad at all and the procedures relatively straightforward. My experience with France is much, much worse, for instance. I don't think the current UK system deters people in itself. It's relative and people take the path of least resistance: If you're from the EU then it has become more difficult to move to the UK whereas you can still freely move around the EU + Norway and Switzerland so perhaps this influences some people within the EU. But if you look further than that (e.g. non-EU person trying to move to EU, UK, US, etc) then the UK is certainly not deterring anyone.
- gambiting 5y ago
  >>now obviously people have to jump through a few hoops since there is no free movement with the EU anymore but it's not bad at all. If by "not bad at all" you mean "previously you could just come over with a 1 day notice and start working immediately" changing to "you literally can't be hired at all unless you fulfill certain criteria that disqualify entire groups of workers" then sure, "not bad at all". At the company where we work 9/10 hires in the last years were from EU for junior/intermediate positions, now that number is zero, we aren't even interviewing because we know we can't hire them. But sure, "not bad at all".
  - mytailorisrich 5y ago
    Try moving from the EU to the US or from India to the EU. The EU is very special in that it has internal free movement. Now, obviously the UK has left so it controls immigration from the EU in the same way the EU controls immigration from outside the EU. Comparatively the UK is not bad. Try having to queue in the street from 6am and be treated like sh*t at a French 'prefecture' every year to renew your resident card... As for hiring, in tech in the UK, even for junior positions, we have many Indians. It's not a big problem to hire from outside the UK. Again what's happening is that people got so used to how easy it was within the EU that it's a rude awakening to be treated as non-EU, on both sides of the Channel, but that does not make it "dystopian"... It's just the reality of international migration worldwide. Countries do have immigration controls.
    - gambiting 5y ago
      I know the humiliating experience of having to apply for an american visa as a tourist, so I don't have to imagine, thank you. And again, just because some people have it worse doesn't mean these issues don't exist. No one at my company is going "well, we suddenly lost access to a job market of 300M people, but well, people from India have it much worse so I guess it's fine". Like, I get your point, but it's not helpful.
      - mytailorisrich 5y ago
        I'm trying to show that the situation is not as bad as some claim it is and that all countries have immigration controls. I'm not saying that Indians have it worse, but I'm not saying that EU citizens deserve to have it better, either. It is absolutely possible to hire from outside the UK, even for junior positions, and that happens a lot all the time. In my book reality checks are helpful.
        klelatti 5y ago
        Not all countries have policies that have led to systematic deportation of significant numbers of their citizens who have the legal right to be in the country. You've provided a personal view of your own experience - fair enough - but it's not a 'reality check' on the point made in the comment you replied to.
rich_sasha 5y ago
Windrush was particularly cruel and frankly taking the piss. People were asked to justify their right to live in the UK with a piece of paper ("Landing card") that their parents may have received 50+ years prior on arrival to the UK. Leaflets given to people deported to Jamaica (their parents' homeland) said things like "attitudes to foreigners can vary abroad, try to <<act Jamaican>>, don't emphasise coming from Britain".
reedf1 5y ago
The hostile environment policy is truly dystopian. I'm sure the design of this policy felt reasonable to a bureaucrat somewhere, but in effect the only practical way to tell if someone "might be foreign" is their race.

mytailorisrich 5y ago

From experience I don't think the UK is bad. It was very good before Brexit, now obviously people have to jump through a few hoops since there is no free movement with the EU anymore but it's not bad at all and the procedures relatively straightforward. My experience with France is much, much worse, for instance. I don't think the current UK system deters people in itself. It's relative and people take the path of least resistance: If you're from the EU then it has become more difficult to move to the UK whereas you can still freely move around the EU + Norway and Switzerland so perhaps this influences some people within the EU. But if you look further than that (e.g. non-EU person trying to move to EU, UK, US, etc) then the UK is certainly not deterring anyone.

gambiting 5y ago
>>now obviously people have to jump through a few hoops since there is no free movement with the EU anymore but it's not bad at all. If by "not bad at all" you mean "previously you could just come over with a 1 day notice and start working immediately" changing to "you literally can't be hired at all unless you fulfill certain criteria that disqualify entire groups of workers" then sure, "not bad at all". At the company where we work 9/10 hires in the last years were from EU for junior/intermediate positions, now that number is zero, we aren't even interviewing because we know we can't hire them. But sure, "not bad at all".
- mytailorisrich 5y ago
  Try moving from the EU to the US or from India to the EU. The EU is very special in that it has internal free movement. Now, obviously the UK has left so it controls immigration from the EU in the same way the EU controls immigration from outside the EU. Comparatively the UK is not bad. Try having to queue in the street from 6am and be treated like sh*t at a French 'prefecture' every year to renew your resident card... As for hiring, in tech in the UK, even for junior positions, we have many Indians. It's not a big problem to hire from outside the UK. Again what's happening is that people got so used to how easy it was within the EU that it's a rude awakening to be treated as non-EU, on both sides of the Channel, but that does not make it "dystopian"... It's just the reality of international migration worldwide. Countries do have immigration controls.
  - gambiting 5y ago
    I know the humiliating experience of having to apply for an american visa as a tourist, so I don't have to imagine, thank you. And again, just because some people have it worse doesn't mean these issues don't exist. No one at my company is going "well, we suddenly lost access to a job market of 300M people, but well, people from India have it much worse so I guess it's fine". Like, I get your point, but it's not helpful.
    - mytailorisrich 5y ago
      I'm trying to show that the situation is not as bad as some claim it is and that all countries have immigration controls. I'm not saying that Indians have it worse, but I'm not saying that EU citizens deserve to have it better, either. It is absolutely possible to hire from outside the UK, even for junior positions, and that happens a lot all the time. In my book reality checks are helpful.
      - klelatti 5y ago
        Not all countries have policies that have led to systematic deportation of significant numbers of their citizens who have the legal right to be in the country. You've provided a personal view of your own experience - fair enough - but it's not a 'reality check' on the point made in the comment you replied to.

rich_sasha 5y ago

Windrush was particularly cruel and frankly taking the piss. People were asked to justify their right to live in the UK with a piece of paper ("Landing card") that their parents may have received 50+ years prior on arrival to the UK. Leaflets given to people deported to Jamaica (their parents' homeland) said things like "attitudes to foreigners can vary abroad, try to <<act Jamaican>>, don't emphasise coming from Britain".

reedf1 5y ago

The hostile environment policy is truly dystopian. I'm sure the design of this policy felt reasonable to a bureaucrat somewhere, but in effect the only practical way to tell if someone "might be foreign" is their race.