4 ms·

>There is no defense against a legal power that does not limit itself. Correction: there is no legal defense. There are other defenses, historically.

sirmike_ 5y ago
>There are other defenses, historically. Indeed. Revolution, rebellion. None of these *have* to be violent per se. The Pax French have handled massive changes in gov without armed conflict in the 20th Century (not counting WWII and Nazis occupation.) It will be very interesting to see how well their democracy will counter this.
dbcurtis 5y ago
While you are correct, these other defenses are messy and miserable to live through. Let’s hope we find a less bloody path forward.
xenophonf 5y ago
Don't be coy. You're talking about the violent overthrow of the government. And you know what? If you live in any one of the western liberal democracies, this response is bullshit and you know it. In a democracy, the government is _you_ and the _people around you_, and we have all kinds of legal defenses against wanna-be autocrats: - speeches - rallies - op-eds - letters - phone calls - commercials - campaign contributions - strikes - sit-ins - marches - education - lawsuits - appeals But above all: - voting So get up on your soap box, and get people to the ballot box.
- 8372049 5y ago
  This is true. Coup d'État: A Practical Handbook discusses this further and talks about how seizing power in most modern, western democracies is very hard.
- TrevorJ 5y ago
  > So get up on your soap box, and get people to the ballot box. I think it's important to understand the context of a statement like this as it pertains to the United States at least. At some point in the last 6 years, the average person on both sides of the aisle has felt as if they have some reason to be quite skeptical of the security of our electoral system. It has been one of the defining issues of two consecutive election cycles. Setting aside the question of whether or not that skepticism is warranted, the rather worrying fact remains: as a whole, our belief in the mechanism of voting is probably approaching an all time low. This is quite concerning.
- dang 5y ago
  Please don't take HN threads further into flamewar like this. It's not what the site is for. The GP comment wasn't substantive either but the idea, when replying, is to move further away from hell, not jump into it. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - xenophonf 5y ago
    I stand by my comments. I am all for a call to action in the face of illiberal governance, but my correspondent made an unsubtle appeal to political violence. That is wrong.
    - dang 5y ago
      Sorry, but grandiose political rhetoric, including "I stand by my comments", is a bad fit for the trivial medium of an internet forum. As for 'unsubtle appeal to political violence', please abide by this site guideline: "Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith." It's not at all obvious that you read the comment correctly, and 'unsubtle' is a big overstatement. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

sirmike_ 5y ago

>There are other defenses, historically. Indeed. Revolution, rebellion. None of these *have* to be violent per se. The Pax French have handled massive changes in gov without armed conflict in the 20th Century (not counting WWII and Nazis occupation.) It will be very interesting to see how well their democracy will counter this.

dbcurtis 5y ago

While you are correct, these other defenses are messy and miserable to live through. Let’s hope we find a less bloody path forward.

xenophonf 5y ago

Don't be coy. You're talking about the violent overthrow of the government. And you know what? If you live in any one of the western liberal democracies, this response is bullshit and you know it. In a democracy, the government is _you_ and the _people around you_, and we have all kinds of legal defenses against wanna-be autocrats: - speeches - rallies - op-eds - letters - phone calls - commercials - campaign contributions - strikes - sit-ins - marches - education - lawsuits - appeals But above all: - voting So get up on your soap box, and get people to the ballot box.

8372049 5y ago
This is true. Coup d'État: A Practical Handbook discusses this further and talks about how seizing power in most modern, western democracies is very hard.
TrevorJ 5y ago
> So get up on your soap box, and get people to the ballot box. I think it's important to understand the context of a statement like this as it pertains to the United States at least. At some point in the last 6 years, the average person on both sides of the aisle has felt as if they have some reason to be quite skeptical of the security of our electoral system. It has been one of the defining issues of two consecutive election cycles. Setting aside the question of whether or not that skepticism is warranted, the rather worrying fact remains: as a whole, our belief in the mechanism of voting is probably approaching an all time low. This is quite concerning.
dang 5y ago
Please don't take HN threads further into flamewar like this. It's not what the site is for. The GP comment wasn't substantive either but the idea, when replying, is to move further away from hell, not jump into it. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- xenophonf 5y ago
  I stand by my comments. I am all for a call to action in the face of illiberal governance, but my correspondent made an unsubtle appeal to political violence. That is wrong.
  - dang 5y ago
    Sorry, but grandiose political rhetoric, including "I stand by my comments", is a bad fit for the trivial medium of an internet forum. As for 'unsubtle appeal to political violence', please abide by this site guideline: "Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith." It's not at all obvious that you read the comment correctly, and 'unsubtle' is a big overstatement. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html