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>Seems that some people just entirely miss that part of their upbringing I think it's worse than that: they get too much shock and awe beatings/ unpredictable

>Seems that some people just entirely miss that part of their upbringing I think it's worse than that: they get too much shock and awe beatings/ unpredictable rage from parents who were raised the same. It's a cycle/ disease. "My parents hit me and I turned out fine" is often a revealing statement. And a defense of parents who may not deserve it but coping with that is harder.

elzbardico 5y ago
I see constantly lots of parents that use physical punishment with their kids with lousy results. Violence delegitimize authority. You think your kids respect you, but they fear you. Like the subjects of a dictatorship they will be role model citizens under your eyes, and run all kind of "illegal activities" and you are not close. I know because my mom beat me. Yes, I ended up fine, DESPITE it, NOT BECAUSE of it.
yomly 5y ago
My parents did hit me and I did turn out fine. They did their best with the tools and knowledge they had available to them. Would I hit my kids? Probably not, I can see some value in it, but I think ultimately your parenting style shouldn't deviate too much from their own surroundings - that is what causes more harm IMO. YMMV So what does this statement reveal about me?
- fennecfoxen 5y ago
  Well, my guess is you're trying to defend "occasional physical punishment on rare occasions, such as when a child has done something life-endangering." What this specifically reveals is some level of naïve obliviousness to the extant patterns of violence, both physical and emotional, which abusive parents apply to their kids in practice, and the emotional harms that many children will suffer under such disciplinary regime.
  - perl4ever 5y ago
    >my guess is you're trying to defend "occasional physical punishment on rare occasions, such as when a child has done something life-endangering." I mean, you can let someone touch a hot stove, or not. Is letting them learn for themselves abusive? I believe that was how I learned that specific lesson, not by being hit when I reached. On the other hand, there are things that you can't let someone learn for themselves because they won't live through it. And what about hurting other people? Is it possible that there is an empathy circuit that doesn't necessarily get wired properly if early on, pain isn't connected to hurting others? This doesn't have to be applied by humans in all cases. You bother the cat, it slaps you. If physical punishment is unacceptable, does that mean the cat should be declawed so it can't do that?
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - fennecfoxen 5y ago
      yeah! now you're doubling down on this defense, while the realities of problematic abuse justified with the same language continue in the background unabated
      - perl4ever 5y ago
        I hope you're not confusing me with another commenter. I provided a few things that I thought were in kind of a gray area, in order that you might clarify how you categorize them and how you think such situations could be avoided or handled differently. It seems to me that my comment was manifestly a combination of factual claims and questions about your beliefs, not justifications of anything.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- elzbardico 5y ago
  My mother hit me, I end up turning out fine but I don't physically discipline my son and I think my way is better than my mother's. Of course I know that I have the advantage of being a male, a big and strong male with a deep voice, but my wife also doesn't have any big discipline issue with our kids when she is alone with them for one or two weeks, and she also don't use physical punishment.
- tclancy 5y ago
  What value do you see in it as a long-term teaching tool? Whenever I have caught myself feeling that way it’s because they’ve done something risky that has scared me at a subconscious level and I want to lash out. I’ve never once had a rational reason for feeling that way.
  - yomly 5y ago
    I guess the two values I see are having an extra level in your varieties of punishment - a "nuclear option" perhaps. The other is softer - I am curious how normalising pain may positively benefit a developing child. Could it build toughness? Might my child be more likely to stand up to a bully? From a self defence perspective, a big part of personal development is overcoming aversion to pain - eg not flinching in boxing/mma. In any case I think there are alternatives to learning these lessons and disciplining your children and I think in our environment it would do a lot of emotional damage that isn't worth the benefits - hence why I probably won't hit my children. That said, I find it curious that only one to two generations ago it was fully the norm.
    - distances 5y ago
      > The other is softer - I am curious how normalising pain may positively benefit a developing child. Could it build toughness? Might my child be more likely to stand up to a bully? Aren't you worried this de-stigmatizes violence, and could lead either to adoption of violence as a problem-solving tool, or in general a society that accepts everyday violence? I'm living in a place where I never have felt physically threatened, not at dark streets or drunk alone or whatever. I do recognize large part of this is privilege of being a male, but I've always felt my physical well-being isn't threatened. I'd never try to fight back unless that's the last option, rather de-escalate, run away, call police.
    - tclancy 5y ago
      That sounds really sad to me. >I am curious how normalising pain may positively benefit a developing child I feel like this is a story we were handed in prior generations (for context, I am 45) where people (specifically men) need to be "tough" but I don't think anyone really defined what that meant or why.
moistly 5y ago
> It's a cycle/ disease. It is only recently that we’ve (in the West) had a generation or two of the majority of us being raised without suffering direct experience of war. Just as children who are abused often go on to be abusers in adulthood, I suspect societies that suffer war often become abusive post-war.
- tclancy 5y ago
  For sure. My feeling is that the root/ meta cause is anything where the illusion of control over your own destiny is taken away. A parent can beat a young child no matter what the child thinks about it; a bomb can blow your life apart no matter what you think about it. Having a feeling of agency is incredibly important to feeling part of society.
  - moistly 5y ago
    I expect a lot of the oppositional behaviour re: covid we’ve recently witnessed, have their roots in a need to assert an illusion of control, in much the same way toddlers assert control by refusing food or holding their bodily functions.
Aerroon 5y ago
>I think it's worse than that: they get too much shock and awe beatings/ unpredictable rage from parents who were raised the same. It's a cycle/ disease. Maybe it's not a cycle, but genetic instead. It would appear like a cycle because the children will end up doing what the parents did, but they might simply be predisposed to it.
- tclancy 5y ago
  Maaaayybe. But I would guess any number of twins/ adoption studies suggest otherwise. Blaming it on something uncontrollable is worse because it suggests there is no reason to try to do better.

elzbardico 5y ago

I see constantly lots of parents that use physical punishment with their kids with lousy results. Violence delegitimize authority. You think your kids respect you, but they fear you. Like the subjects of a dictatorship they will be role model citizens under your eyes, and run all kind of "illegal activities" and you are not close. I know because my mom beat me. Yes, I ended up fine, DESPITE it, NOT BECAUSE of it.

yomly 5y ago

My parents did hit me and I did turn out fine. They did their best with the tools and knowledge they had available to them. Would I hit my kids? Probably not, I can see some value in it, but I think ultimately your parenting style shouldn't deviate too much from their own surroundings - that is what causes more harm IMO. YMMV So what does this statement reveal about me?

fennecfoxen 5y ago
Well, my guess is you're trying to defend "occasional physical punishment on rare occasions, such as when a child has done something life-endangering." What this specifically reveals is some level of naïve obliviousness to the extant patterns of violence, both physical and emotional, which abusive parents apply to their kids in practice, and the emotional harms that many children will suffer under such disciplinary regime.
- perl4ever 5y ago
  >my guess is you're trying to defend "occasional physical punishment on rare occasions, such as when a child has done something life-endangering." I mean, you can let someone touch a hot stove, or not. Is letting them learn for themselves abusive? I believe that was how I learned that specific lesson, not by being hit when I reached. On the other hand, there are things that you can't let someone learn for themselves because they won't live through it. And what about hurting other people? Is it possible that there is an empathy circuit that doesn't necessarily get wired properly if early on, pain isn't connected to hurting others? This doesn't have to be applied by humans in all cases. You bother the cat, it slaps you. If physical punishment is unacceptable, does that mean the cat should be declawed so it can't do that?
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - fennecfoxen 5y ago
    yeah! now you're doubling down on this defense, while the realities of problematic abuse justified with the same language continue in the background unabated
    - perl4ever 5y ago
      I hope you're not confusing me with another commenter. I provided a few things that I thought were in kind of a gray area, in order that you might clarify how you categorize them and how you think such situations could be avoided or handled differently. It seems to me that my comment was manifestly a combination of factual claims and questions about your beliefs, not justifications of anything.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
elzbardico 5y ago
My mother hit me, I end up turning out fine but I don't physically discipline my son and I think my way is better than my mother's. Of course I know that I have the advantage of being a male, a big and strong male with a deep voice, but my wife also doesn't have any big discipline issue with our kids when she is alone with them for one or two weeks, and she also don't use physical punishment.
tclancy 5y ago
What value do you see in it as a long-term teaching tool? Whenever I have caught myself feeling that way it’s because they’ve done something risky that has scared me at a subconscious level and I want to lash out. I’ve never once had a rational reason for feeling that way.
- yomly 5y ago
  I guess the two values I see are having an extra level in your varieties of punishment - a "nuclear option" perhaps. The other is softer - I am curious how normalising pain may positively benefit a developing child. Could it build toughness? Might my child be more likely to stand up to a bully? From a self defence perspective, a big part of personal development is overcoming aversion to pain - eg not flinching in boxing/mma. In any case I think there are alternatives to learning these lessons and disciplining your children and I think in our environment it would do a lot of emotional damage that isn't worth the benefits - hence why I probably won't hit my children. That said, I find it curious that only one to two generations ago it was fully the norm.
  - distances 5y ago
    > The other is softer - I am curious how normalising pain may positively benefit a developing child. Could it build toughness? Might my child be more likely to stand up to a bully? Aren't you worried this de-stigmatizes violence, and could lead either to adoption of violence as a problem-solving tool, or in general a society that accepts everyday violence? I'm living in a place where I never have felt physically threatened, not at dark streets or drunk alone or whatever. I do recognize large part of this is privilege of being a male, but I've always felt my physical well-being isn't threatened. I'd never try to fight back unless that's the last option, rather de-escalate, run away, call police.
  - tclancy 5y ago
    That sounds really sad to me. >I am curious how normalising pain may positively benefit a developing child I feel like this is a story we were handed in prior generations (for context, I am 45) where people (specifically men) need to be "tough" but I don't think anyone really defined what that meant or why.

moistly 5y ago

> It's a cycle/ disease. It is only recently that we’ve (in the West) had a generation or two of the majority of us being raised without suffering direct experience of war. Just as children who are abused often go on to be abusers in adulthood, I suspect societies that suffer war often become abusive post-war.

tclancy 5y ago
For sure. My feeling is that the root/ meta cause is anything where the illusion of control over your own destiny is taken away. A parent can beat a young child no matter what the child thinks about it; a bomb can blow your life apart no matter what you think about it. Having a feeling of agency is incredibly important to feeling part of society.
- moistly 5y ago
  I expect a lot of the oppositional behaviour re: covid we’ve recently witnessed, have their roots in a need to assert an illusion of control, in much the same way toddlers assert control by refusing food or holding their bodily functions.

Aerroon 5y ago

>I think it's worse than that: they get too much shock and awe beatings/ unpredictable rage from parents who were raised the same. It's a cycle/ disease. Maybe it's not a cycle, but genetic instead. It would appear like a cycle because the children will end up doing what the parents did, but they might simply be predisposed to it.

tclancy 5y ago
Maaaayybe. But I would guess any number of twins/ adoption studies suggest otherwise. Blaming it on something uncontrollable is worse because it suggests there is no reason to try to do better.