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> Obama had a speech where he noted the futility of talking to someone about their privilege ... when that person as far as they're concerned has had a hard lif

> Obama had a speech where he noted the futility of talking to someone about their privilege ... when that person as far as they're concerned has had a hard life and everything stacked against them. And maybe that person is right, they did have a hard life / quite the opposite of privilege. This resonates true in tech. I know (white) developers who grew up poor. Poor as in, hide anything you have else it'll get pawned. Poor as in it doesn't matter the fridge is broken: since the electric bill is late the whole house is freezing anyways. Then they get invited into diversity trainings and told that they are privileged, oppressors and should acknowledge it. Ohh and there's now a diverse hiring program which, so far, has hired three Ivy League educated sons of wealthy Nigerians.

_moof 5y ago
This is what intersectionality is supposed to be about: the notion that privilege and discrimination aren't one-dimensional, but are complex products of many intersecting and possibly conflicting experiences, attributes, and contexts. Unfortunately this is a very nuanced idea, and we hate nuanced ideas -- especially about people -- because they require time, energy, rapport-building, context sensitivity, holistic thinking, and the ability to grab hold simultaneously of opposing ideas. (And worst of all for some, they require cutting off a supply of intoxicating self-righteousness.) None of that is going to happen in a one-hour workplace training session. If it's going to happen at all, it's going to unfold gradually over a lifetime. Since timelines of that scale are intolerable, we end up with the sort of ham-fisted oversimplifications you've experienced.
- d0100 5y ago
  > This is what intersectionality is supposed to be about Intersect enough and you start dealing with individuals And no one has time for that
  - CrazyPyroLinux 5y ago
    The individual is the most oppressed minority.
- Dracophoenix 5y ago
  The issue with intersectionality is the same as the issue with affirmative action: a person is treated as an RPG character where the desired outcome is to "save" the person with the "lowest" stats or compensate for some real or perceived loss in that person's life. In the case of intersectionality, the "winner" is the person who can stack the most "undesirable" traits on his/her bingo card of victimhood (i.e. the victim Olympics) without any consideration given towards his/her personal agency. Intersectionality, both in premise and application, is, in my view, a collection of x-isms of low expectations masquerading as some grand revelation about societal functions. And I don't think your longterm timeline, even with the nuance and consideration you believe to missing from its application, would bring you to a world where people understand one another's circumstances and integrate these observations into their personal livelihood. Instead what you'll have is a world beset with the reinvention of tribalism and original sin. While intersectionality may have some merit as a sociological observation (even if I though I find its claims to be unfalsifiable), a sociological observation cannot be treated a deterministic inevitability supplanting human agency.
  - antifa 5y ago
    > In the case of intersectionality, the "winner" is the person who can stack the most "undesirable" traits on his/her bingo card of victimhood (i.e. the victim Olympics) without any consideration given towards his/her personal agency This is a completely insane lie about intersectionality.
    - Dracophoenix 5y ago
      Where is the lie? Please be more specific.
      - antifa 5y ago
        I quoted it directly.
        Dracophoenix 5y ago
Nasrudith 5y ago
Priveledge is such a stupid choice of words that using it for outreach instead of academia frankly seems like they are trying to start conflict for the sake of self-righteousness and one-upmanship purity spiral. The word "priveledge" implies that nobody deserves it by default when really it is the exact opposite. "Hidden Problems" is a clumsy top off the head synonym which would get the idea across better. It still fails to get across "what you take for granted they don't have" but it lacks the many sins of priveledge phrasing. Heck there are issues which aren't neccessarily anybody's fault like say being a minority in an area and finding it difficult to find people with the same related experiences.
Brian_K_White 5y ago
...and they didn't get arrested for no reason, lived to adulthood, and when they tried to get a job they were taken seriously and evaluated mostly on their ability.
- 908B64B197 5y ago
  You are making a lot of assumptions. Try showing up at a hiring event with a southern accent, no matter your race.
  - Brian_K_White 5y ago
    Try showing up to do anything at all without that southern accent and and without a professed love of jeebus where those accents come from. This sad story of the unfairness of prejudice somehow inspires not a single tear.
    - kcplate 5y ago
      That doesn’t match my experience in over four decades of living and working in the south. But it is the same kind of story I hear time and time again from folks who don’t live in the south about the south. So it must be true I guess.
      - Brian_K_White 5y ago
        If you live and work in the south for over 40 years, then you are by definition no visitor. Meanwhile, you don't even have to get out of your car to get told you're not welcome when people have big signs on the south bound side of the road proclaiming "You're in TRUMP COUNTRY now!" Enjoy your denial.
        kcplate 5y ago
        Like I said, despite my long experience to the contrary it must be true because somebody on the internet said so. And I’m sorry that stupid signs frighten you so…most people I know just ignore them.

_moof 5y ago

This is what intersectionality is supposed to be about: the notion that privilege and discrimination aren't one-dimensional, but are complex products of many intersecting and possibly conflicting experiences, attributes, and contexts. Unfortunately this is a very nuanced idea, and we hate nuanced ideas -- especially about people -- because they require time, energy, rapport-building, context sensitivity, holistic thinking, and the ability to grab hold simultaneously of opposing ideas. (And worst of all for some, they require cutting off a supply of intoxicating self-righteousness.) None of that is going to happen in a one-hour workplace training session. If it's going to happen at all, it's going to unfold gradually over a lifetime. Since timelines of that scale are intolerable, we end up with the sort of ham-fisted oversimplifications you've experienced.

d0100 5y ago
> This is what intersectionality is supposed to be about Intersect enough and you start dealing with individuals And no one has time for that
- CrazyPyroLinux 5y ago
  The individual is the most oppressed minority.
Dracophoenix 5y ago
The issue with intersectionality is the same as the issue with affirmative action: a person is treated as an RPG character where the desired outcome is to "save" the person with the "lowest" stats or compensate for some real or perceived loss in that person's life. In the case of intersectionality, the "winner" is the person who can stack the most "undesirable" traits on his/her bingo card of victimhood (i.e. the victim Olympics) without any consideration given towards his/her personal agency. Intersectionality, both in premise and application, is, in my view, a collection of x-isms of low expectations masquerading as some grand revelation about societal functions. And I don't think your longterm timeline, even with the nuance and consideration you believe to missing from its application, would bring you to a world where people understand one another's circumstances and integrate these observations into their personal livelihood. Instead what you'll have is a world beset with the reinvention of tribalism and original sin. While intersectionality may have some merit as a sociological observation (even if I though I find its claims to be unfalsifiable), a sociological observation cannot be treated a deterministic inevitability supplanting human agency.
- antifa 5y ago
  > In the case of intersectionality, the "winner" is the person who can stack the most "undesirable" traits on his/her bingo card of victimhood (i.e. the victim Olympics) without any consideration given towards his/her personal agency This is a completely insane lie about intersectionality.
  - Dracophoenix 5y ago
    Where is the lie? Please be more specific.
    - antifa 5y ago
      I quoted it directly.
      - Dracophoenix 5y ago

Nasrudith 5y ago

Priveledge is such a stupid choice of words that using it for outreach instead of academia frankly seems like they are trying to start conflict for the sake of self-righteousness and one-upmanship purity spiral. The word "priveledge" implies that nobody deserves it by default when really it is the exact opposite. "Hidden Problems" is a clumsy top off the head synonym which would get the idea across better. It still fails to get across "what you take for granted they don't have" but it lacks the many sins of priveledge phrasing. Heck there are issues which aren't neccessarily anybody's fault like say being a minority in an area and finding it difficult to find people with the same related experiences.

Brian_K_White 5y ago

...and they didn't get arrested for no reason, lived to adulthood, and when they tried to get a job they were taken seriously and evaluated mostly on their ability.

908B64B197 5y ago
You are making a lot of assumptions. Try showing up at a hiring event with a southern accent, no matter your race.
- Brian_K_White 5y ago
  Try showing up to do anything at all without that southern accent and and without a professed love of jeebus where those accents come from. This sad story of the unfairness of prejudice somehow inspires not a single tear.
  - kcplate 5y ago
    That doesn’t match my experience in over four decades of living and working in the south. But it is the same kind of story I hear time and time again from folks who don’t live in the south about the south. So it must be true I guess.
    - Brian_K_White 5y ago
      If you live and work in the south for over 40 years, then you are by definition no visitor. Meanwhile, you don't even have to get out of your car to get told you're not welcome when people have big signs on the south bound side of the road proclaiming "You're in TRUMP COUNTRY now!" Enjoy your denial.
      - kcplate 5y ago
        Like I said, despite my long experience to the contrary it must be true because somebody on the internet said so. And I’m sorry that stupid signs frighten you so…most people I know just ignore them.