6 ms·

so, when's everyone switching over to Podman?

toomuchtodo 5y ago
If you're doing $10M in ARR, how much engineering time are you going to spend to switch compared to paying Docker a few thousand dollars a month? Your spend on cloud and Slack (or other comms) is likely far higher. You're probably spending more on mobile/cell business service. "Docker attempting to monetize users of its product who can easily afford the cost." I mean, the terms seems reasonable, and wouldn't you rather support Docker vs IBM (Redhat->Podman)? Nothing changes for users who aren't making money using Docker, but I suppose you could still spend your time switching to podman on principal.
- jhawk28 5y ago
  I'm part of a large company and I have no influence over what most other people do. My projects within the company are small so whenever these sorts of things happen, it rarely translates into the company spending a bunch of money to provide the product across the company. At best, I may be able to convince a manager to buy it for 2-10 people on my team.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - toomuchtodo 5y ago
    Licensing isn't perfect. On the contrary, it is the least worst implementation of attempting to extract a reasonable amount of revenue from the user of your software, who is realizing value creation or benefit themselves from its use. SaaS is popular because the exchange of value between producer and consumer (and the ownership and responsibility model) is much more clear (imho). Open source tooling might be a better fit based on your org's needs and your use case. Solving for the intersection of building and maintaining tools people desire and those building said tools eating and paying rent is hard. (no affiliation with docker)
- stuff4ben 5y ago
  I'll preface this by saying I'm an IBM employee. That being said your comment rubbed me the wrong way... > wouldn't you rather support Docker vs IBM (Redhat->Podman)? Podman is an open source product and Docker is not. I'd much rather support an open source project. And what's wrong with "supporting" IBM anyways? Did they hurt you in some way???
  - syshum 5y ago
    Docker is not really a product, Docker is a company with in that there are several products, some are open source some are not. The Docker Engine is Apache License and open source.
  - toomuchtodo 5y ago
    > And what's wrong with "supporting" IBM anyways? Did they hurt you in some way??? They are a dysfunctional consultancy masquerading as a technology firm, running on inertia. They are not to be supported. (Also, my genuine condolences) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24228972 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24228972 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26532125 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26532125 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26869877 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26869877 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22224782 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22224782 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23268191 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23268191 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27706128 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27706128 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24471903 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24471903
    - stuff4ben 5y ago
      FWIW, we've divested/spun off the "consultancy" part. And not every part of IBM is bad, there are a ton of great developers and teams that work here, no condolences needed. I quite enjoy doing what I do here. Lots of innovation in multiple areas, but I guess if you have to drink the startup koolaid prevalent here on HN, be my guest.
      - toomuchtodo 5y ago
- physicsguy 5y ago
  My tiny part of a division of my last company made $40 million USD per year in revenue. We had ~40 employees. Getting the funding for using something like this came from a few levels up and would be in no way guaranteed.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - toomuchtodo 5y ago
    I admit Docker will likely have to tweak their licensing model while also building relationships where there is some wiggle room for how licensing is handled (perhaps accept credit card payments from corporate users that they can expense to sidestep procurement). "Call Us For Pricing"
    - justincormack 5y ago
      We do accept credit card payments. All our pricing is on the website https://docker.com/pricing https://docker.com/pricing - the Business plan will be available by credit card soon as well.
    - adolph 5y ago
      At my institution the "adapt open source" vs "buy" balance is also affected by the high effort of making a purchase happen. My bet is that things will get hung up on an exclusive acquisition justification, at which point the IBM/RHEL sales team will come in with "solution" using podman, buildah, etc. I've quit DD just now to try those tools out.
  - robertlagrant 5y ago
    This seems like a false economy. Docker adds insane value for us (similar number of tech employees), and while I don't like price hikes based on things other than value add features, I certainly want Docker to exist in five years. Or get bought by Hashicorp, perhaps.
n42 5y ago
as soon as a viable alternative to Docker Desktop for Mac exists I am done with this company forever (and they seem to be anticipating that)
- mdaniel 5y ago
  Honest question: what features of DfM are you using and what alternatives have you tried that don't work for you?
- justinholmes 5y ago
  Just use multipass https://multipass.run https://multipass.run and folder mount.
  - rcarmo 5y ago
    This. This is what I do (except I use VS Code to remote to the Multipass VM)
- stuff4ben 5y ago
  why do you need the Docker Desktop? Can't you just use the command line? I mostly use Docker on Linux and even then I've almost switched everything over to Podman.
  - ianburrell 5y ago
    The Docker CLI can't do anything without the Docker daemon. Daemon (and containers) only runs on Linux. On Mac, it needs to run inside a Linux VM. Before Docker Desktop, would need to create VM with Docker and connect to that. Docker Desktop makes that smooth and wraps in nice UI.
- handrous 5y ago
  I've used Docker for years and never touched Desktop. What's indispensable about it?
  - saxonww 5y ago
raesene9 5y ago
If you want an open source alternative, just use Docker Engine, it's still open source. You can install the docker client inside WSL/OSX and connect over SSH to a docker CE instance.
bionade24 5y ago
When it's actually 100%ly compliant in it's APIs, especially regarding podman-compose and the socket API.
cpuguy83 5y ago
Podman doesn't do what docker desktop does. They are not the same thing at all.

If you're doing $10M in ARR, how much engineering time are you going to spend to switch compared to paying Docker a few thousand dollars a month? Your spend on cloud and Slack (or other comms) is likely far higher. You're probably spending more on mobile/cell business service. "Docker attempting to monetize users of its product who can easily afford the cost." I mean, the terms seems reasonable, and wouldn't you rather support Docker vs IBM (Redhat->Podman)? Nothing changes for users who aren't making money using Docker, but I suppose you could still spend your time switching to podman on principal.

jhawk28 5y ago
I'm part of a large company and I have no influence over what most other people do. My projects within the company are small so whenever these sorts of things happen, it rarely translates into the company spending a bunch of money to provide the product across the company. At best, I may be able to convince a manager to buy it for 2-10 people on my team.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- toomuchtodo 5y ago
  Licensing isn't perfect. On the contrary, it is the least worst implementation of attempting to extract a reasonable amount of revenue from the user of your software, who is realizing value creation or benefit themselves from its use. SaaS is popular because the exchange of value between producer and consumer (and the ownership and responsibility model) is much more clear (imho). Open source tooling might be a better fit based on your org's needs and your use case. Solving for the intersection of building and maintaining tools people desire and those building said tools eating and paying rent is hard. (no affiliation with docker)
stuff4ben 5y ago
I'll preface this by saying I'm an IBM employee. That being said your comment rubbed me the wrong way... > wouldn't you rather support Docker vs IBM (Redhat->Podman)? Podman is an open source product and Docker is not. I'd much rather support an open source project. And what's wrong with "supporting" IBM anyways? Did they hurt you in some way???
- syshum 5y ago
  Docker is not really a product, Docker is a company with in that there are several products, some are open source some are not. The Docker Engine is Apache License and open source.
- toomuchtodo 5y ago
  > And what's wrong with "supporting" IBM anyways? Did they hurt you in some way??? They are a dysfunctional consultancy masquerading as a technology firm, running on inertia. They are not to be supported. (Also, my genuine condolences) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24228972 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24228972 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26532125 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26532125 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26869877 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26869877 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22224782 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22224782 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23268191 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23268191 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27706128 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27706128 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24471903 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24471903
  - stuff4ben 5y ago
    FWIW, we've divested/spun off the "consultancy" part. And not every part of IBM is bad, there are a ton of great developers and teams that work here, no condolences needed. I quite enjoy doing what I do here. Lots of innovation in multiple areas, but I guess if you have to drink the startup koolaid prevalent here on HN, be my guest.
    - toomuchtodo 5y ago
physicsguy 5y ago
My tiny part of a division of my last company made $40 million USD per year in revenue. We had ~40 employees. Getting the funding for using something like this came from a few levels up and would be in no way guaranteed.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- toomuchtodo 5y ago
  I admit Docker will likely have to tweak their licensing model while also building relationships where there is some wiggle room for how licensing is handled (perhaps accept credit card payments from corporate users that they can expense to sidestep procurement). "Call Us For Pricing"
  - justincormack 5y ago
    We do accept credit card payments. All our pricing is on the website https://docker.com/pricing https://docker.com/pricing - the Business plan will be available by credit card soon as well.
  - adolph 5y ago
    At my institution the "adapt open source" vs "buy" balance is also affected by the high effort of making a purchase happen. My bet is that things will get hung up on an exclusive acquisition justification, at which point the IBM/RHEL sales team will come in with "solution" using podman, buildah, etc. I've quit DD just now to try those tools out.
- robertlagrant 5y ago
  This seems like a false economy. Docker adds insane value for us (similar number of tech employees), and while I don't like price hikes based on things other than value add features, I certainly want Docker to exist in five years. Or get bought by Hashicorp, perhaps.

n42 5y ago

as soon as a viable alternative to Docker Desktop for Mac exists I am done with this company forever (and they seem to be anticipating that)

mdaniel 5y ago
Honest question: what features of DfM are you using and what alternatives have you tried that don't work for you?
justinholmes 5y ago
Just use multipass https://multipass.run https://multipass.run and folder mount.
- rcarmo 5y ago
  This. This is what I do (except I use VS Code to remote to the Multipass VM)
stuff4ben 5y ago
why do you need the Docker Desktop? Can't you just use the command line? I mostly use Docker on Linux and even then I've almost switched everything over to Podman.
- ianburrell 5y ago
  The Docker CLI can't do anything without the Docker daemon. Daemon (and containers) only runs on Linux. On Mac, it needs to run inside a Linux VM. Before Docker Desktop, would need to create VM with Docker and connect to that. Docker Desktop makes that smooth and wraps in nice UI.
handrous 5y ago
I've used Docker for years and never touched Desktop. What's indispensable about it?
- saxonww 5y ago

raesene9 5y ago

If you want an open source alternative, just use Docker Engine, it's still open source. You can install the docker client inside WSL/OSX and connect over SSH to a docker CE instance.

bionade24 5y ago

When it's actually 100%ly compliant in it's APIs, especially regarding podman-compose and the socket API.

cpuguy83 5y ago

Podman doesn't do what docker desktop does. They are not the same thing at all.