6 ms·

> Windows 11 is optimized for speed, efficiency So why does it not support five-year-old hardware? I realize it's all just marketing, but I'm actually really

> Windows 11 is optimized for speed, efficiency So why does it not support five-year-old hardware? I realize it's all just marketing, but I'm actually really frustrated with how developers seem to be defining "performance" nowadays. There's nothing impressive about running fast on a fast machine. Not everyone has access to the latest and greatest hardware, nor should they, lest we want to ruin the planet. If you're doing complex 3D modeling, that's one thing, but please tell me—what is the average office worker doing today that wouldn't have been possible on a PC ten years ago? And then please explain why Windows 11 needs a minimum of 4 GB of memory.

hbn 5y ago
"What Andy giveth, Bill taketh away"
thrower123 5y ago
> And then please explain why Windows 11 needs a minimum of 4 GB of memory. It has Teams integrated directly into the operating system. There's a GB of RAM right there off the top.
- LeSaucy 5y ago
  Worth waiting 6-8 months for debloat scripts to become refined
- eric__cartman 5y ago
  To be fair that might be a minimum for a decent experience. Even using Linux with less that 4GB of ram is sub-optimal. Open a few browser tabs, some documents and maybe some ram-hogging Spotify playing in the background and you'll be hitting the swap in no time.
  - Ekaros 5y ago
    It's simpler to ask for 4GB straight than have the bad publicity of people buying cheapest netbooks and then complaining how they are slow... And 4GB is not unrealistic minimum in todays world of bloated software.
    - Grimm665 5y ago
      Yes good point, this definitely happened with Vista and the "netbook" craze.
    - Wowfunhappy 5y ago
      My thesis is they should make them not slow in the first place. They weren't slow for people running AIM and Microsoft Office in 2005, and they shouldn't be slow for people running Teams and Microsoft Office in 2021. It's true that Microsoft can't do much about third party apps, but there are plenty of people who rely mostly on Microsoft's own software suite. If the computer is fast up until users open Slack, they'll know who to blame, and Microsoft will even have a competing product to sell!
- Wowfunhappy 5y ago
  Well, maybe that’s a reason to not have Teams integrated directly into the Operating System. Or to make Teams not take up so much memory—we had IM apps 15 years ago which ran just fine on a fraction as much memory, what happened? It’s not really a problem today when people have the option of staying on Windows 10, but what happens in 2025? Seems like a lot of e-waste—and, well, a lot of expense, for people who have a lot less money than I do. Do we really want all our schools and libraries to replace all of their technology so that Microsoft can push their bloated chat client? What does that do to overall technology access in our society?
  - thrower123 5y ago
    Yeah, it's a stupid idea, but they are going all in with Teams as a big feature, after the past year and a half of remote-first work/school. I can only hope that the efforts to rewrite the Teams app to use WebView2 instead of Electron will have some savings in resource usage, but I'm not holding my breath. I thought the Lync client was bloated when it was doing the same things with a tenth of the resource consumption... I expect that the more onerous hardware requirements that appear right now to obsolete older hardware will be rolled back, or will turn out to not actually be real technical constraints. You can still play most video games on a PC from a decade ago; hardware improvements have almost completely stalled out as far as the average user can perceive them, and it doesn't seem all that likely that that paradigm is going to shift in the near future.
    - WorldMaker 5y ago
      Sources say that the "Windows Integration" for Teams is a separate app entirely written in either C++/XAML or C#/XAML, I don't recall which I read it was. It sounds like Microsoft's current solution to "Teams is bloated on Windows" is to give you a native half-capable Teams client in your Taskbar so that you can use Teams before you launch the real Teams client.
      - thrower123 5y ago
        I had heard some odd rumblings that it wasn't actually working with real Office 365 corporate Teams accounts, only the semi-related new consumer Teams accounts that have started rolling out. I hope that this isn't an indication that there is going to be another weird bifurcation of almost but not quite compatible clients that confuse the hell out of users, like we had for years with Skype vs Skype for Business. https://tomtalks.blog/2021/07/preview-microsoft-teams-2-0-on-windows-11-rolls-out/ https://tomtalks.blog/2021/07/preview-microsoft-teams-2-0-on...
wvenable 5y ago
Have you used Chrome on an OS with less than 4GB of RAM?
- Wowfunhappy 5y ago
  The amount of memory used by many modern websites is also atrocious!
- cma 5y ago
  Many 4GB Chromebooks work fine and are popular.
  - wvenable 5y ago
    Right. So that's the perfect minimum for Windows. The amount of 2GB Chromebook models for sale is very tiny and likely all old models.
    - cma 5y ago
      Sorry, I misread and didn't see less than 4GB.
Ekaros 5y ago
Is there an OS that offers reasonable user experience with modern software on just 2GB ram? And with reasonable I mean using browser like Chrome and few of electron apps... I have no doubt they could run Windows 11 in 2GB, but the rest of software ecosystem is so bloated that they would just fail at that space...
drewzero1 5y ago
I was recently surprised to find that Windows 10 only requires 2GB. I've tried running it on machines with 2 or 3GB and can barely open the start menu (slight hyperbole, but it does take a while to open).

hbn 5y ago

"What Andy giveth, Bill taketh away"

thrower123 5y ago

> And then please explain why Windows 11 needs a minimum of 4 GB of memory. It has Teams integrated directly into the operating system. There's a GB of RAM right there off the top.

LeSaucy 5y ago
Worth waiting 6-8 months for debloat scripts to become refined
eric__cartman 5y ago
To be fair that might be a minimum for a decent experience. Even using Linux with less that 4GB of ram is sub-optimal. Open a few browser tabs, some documents and maybe some ram-hogging Spotify playing in the background and you'll be hitting the swap in no time.
- Ekaros 5y ago
  It's simpler to ask for 4GB straight than have the bad publicity of people buying cheapest netbooks and then complaining how they are slow... And 4GB is not unrealistic minimum in todays world of bloated software.
  - Grimm665 5y ago
    Yes good point, this definitely happened with Vista and the "netbook" craze.
  - Wowfunhappy 5y ago
    My thesis is they should make them not slow in the first place. They weren't slow for people running AIM and Microsoft Office in 2005, and they shouldn't be slow for people running Teams and Microsoft Office in 2021. It's true that Microsoft can't do much about third party apps, but there are plenty of people who rely mostly on Microsoft's own software suite. If the computer is fast up until users open Slack, they'll know who to blame, and Microsoft will even have a competing product to sell!
Wowfunhappy 5y ago
Well, maybe that’s a reason to not have Teams integrated directly into the Operating System. Or to make Teams not take up so much memory—we had IM apps 15 years ago which ran just fine on a fraction as much memory, what happened? It’s not really a problem today when people have the option of staying on Windows 10, but what happens in 2025? Seems like a lot of e-waste—and, well, a lot of expense, for people who have a lot less money than I do. Do we really want all our schools and libraries to replace all of their technology so that Microsoft can push their bloated chat client? What does that do to overall technology access in our society?
- thrower123 5y ago
  Yeah, it's a stupid idea, but they are going all in with Teams as a big feature, after the past year and a half of remote-first work/school. I can only hope that the efforts to rewrite the Teams app to use WebView2 instead of Electron will have some savings in resource usage, but I'm not holding my breath. I thought the Lync client was bloated when it was doing the same things with a tenth of the resource consumption... I expect that the more onerous hardware requirements that appear right now to obsolete older hardware will be rolled back, or will turn out to not actually be real technical constraints. You can still play most video games on a PC from a decade ago; hardware improvements have almost completely stalled out as far as the average user can perceive them, and it doesn't seem all that likely that that paradigm is going to shift in the near future.
  - WorldMaker 5y ago
    Sources say that the "Windows Integration" for Teams is a separate app entirely written in either C++/XAML or C#/XAML, I don't recall which I read it was. It sounds like Microsoft's current solution to "Teams is bloated on Windows" is to give you a native half-capable Teams client in your Taskbar so that you can use Teams before you launch the real Teams client.
    - thrower123 5y ago
      I had heard some odd rumblings that it wasn't actually working with real Office 365 corporate Teams accounts, only the semi-related new consumer Teams accounts that have started rolling out. I hope that this isn't an indication that there is going to be another weird bifurcation of almost but not quite compatible clients that confuse the hell out of users, like we had for years with Skype vs Skype for Business. https://tomtalks.blog/2021/07/preview-microsoft-teams-2-0-on-windows-11-rolls-out/ https://tomtalks.blog/2021/07/preview-microsoft-teams-2-0-on...

wvenable 5y ago

Have you used Chrome on an OS with less than 4GB of RAM?

Wowfunhappy 5y ago
The amount of memory used by many modern websites is also atrocious!
cma 5y ago
Many 4GB Chromebooks work fine and are popular.
- wvenable 5y ago
  Right. So that's the perfect minimum for Windows. The amount of 2GB Chromebook models for sale is very tiny and likely all old models.
  - cma 5y ago
    Sorry, I misread and didn't see less than 4GB.

Ekaros 5y ago

Is there an OS that offers reasonable user experience with modern software on just 2GB ram? And with reasonable I mean using browser like Chrome and few of electron apps... I have no doubt they could run Windows 11 in 2GB, but the rest of software ecosystem is so bloated that they would just fail at that space...

drewzero1 5y ago

I was recently surprised to find that Windows 10 only requires 2GB. I've tried running it on machines with 2 or 3GB and can barely open the start menu (slight hyperbole, but it does take a while to open).