6 ms·

The Winners of Remote Work don't live in the United States. The pandemic has accelerated globalization.

by pvm3 5y ago

ThePadawan 5y ago
Only if you consider Remote Global Work. As a European, it is very disheartening to see how many companies espouse "we are now embracing remote work company-wide", which on closer inspection means "California hours +-2h time difference".
- ghaff 5y ago
  California to Europe is tough for many things. I work US East Coast timezone and collaborate a lot with Europe--but that feels like it's getting near the limit for any regular synchronous activity unless one side or the other starts to work atypical hours.
  - ThePadawan 5y ago
    I do totally get it. I only take an issue with the (maybe unintentional) duplicity of pretending that "remote work in the continental US" can only mean "remote work".
    - quadrifoliate 5y ago
      I have seen many European companies as well who do this unintentional duplicity of "remote" meaning "anywhere in the EU/EEA". In addition to the obvious time zone constraints, I think payroll taxes and such are a major regulatory boundary that you need to cross in addition to having "all your shit together" as one of the top comments puts it.
      - handrous 5y ago
        > In addition to the obvious time zone constraints, I think payroll taxes and such are a major regulatory boundary that you need to cross in addition to having "all your shit together" as one of the top comments puts it. This can be annoying even across state boundaries, let alone internationally, for smaller companies that aren't already operating in several states. Consider also things like group health insurance, which are often geographically bound (sometimes even to a single city).
        ThePadawan 5y ago
        Right? It boggles the mind that the biggest companies on Earth are the likes of Instagram instead of a huge company called "Adapt" which takes care of all that between employee and employer as a third party.
        ghaff 5y ago
        I have no personal experience but I have been told that even if you farm a lot of things out there is a certain amount of paperwork (and cost) that you have to handle in-house.
        ThePadawan 5y ago
        Hm, that's a shame. That seems to me to be just accidental, not essential complexity, too.
        ghaff 5y ago
        Well, a lot of it is a patchwork of government rules and regulations. Here's a long post about it from Mitchell at HashiCorp: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17022563 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17022563
        ThePadawan 5y ago
        Right, that's exactly what I find baffling. Right now, if N companies want to hire in M countries, the total expenditure in HR departments is in the order of O(N*M), when it could (theoretically, ideally) be O(N + M).
        walshemj 5y ago
        Which would then crucify its employees and suck rent out of both sides. Also there are vast diferences in labor law between countries
- nathanvanfleet 5y ago
  It's not nearly as easy to have people in a timezone 16 hours offset than you might think. So I am not surprised that they would be two very different decisions.
  - ThePadawan 5y ago
    Right, so that's the point where your job offer should say "Remote - US" or "Remote - UTC-8 +-3h". And I have seen a few companies do that! I would say that this is around 20% of the companies. The other 80% simply list those jobs as "Remote", so they show up on their job pages under all continents, or at least, under their "outside the US" filters. Then sometimes it's not mentioned at the top of the job offer, but in the footnotes with the "we hire regardless of disability etc." statements. All of these things are fine. They're just a far cry from that blog post that the CEO made 10 months into quarantine, talking about how the company will open itself to global remote work.
  - not2b 5y ago
    I'm in California, and am currently interacting with developers and application engineers working in India, US East Coast, France, and Israel, and formerly China (haven't had to deal with that team lately). This means that evening or early morning meetings are sometimes needed. We try to keep it to a minimum, and this hits some people more than others.
  - shubb 5y ago
    EU working with developer team in India. There are advantages and disadvantage - * EU team (e.g. presales) are not available half the day to answer queries and this creates delays, but also forces people to write good tickets if they want anything done * Conversely, even senior developer staff get half the day clear of meetings to do deep work or focus on internal meetings / mentoring * Thankfully this team are mature adults, but I've seen an us and them thing develop between engineering and the rest of the company elsewhere. It's natural when everyone outside engineering is short term incentivised to downplay technical debt and such. If it can happen when everyone is in the same building, I can definitely see how easily it could happen if only engineering are sat together and all the evil product owners are just angry faces on a screen.
- mLuby 5y ago
  It's unfortunate for North Americans who want to work elsewhere too. A globalized workforce is good for peace, prosperity, and human rights. Another comment pointed out that shared time zone "remote working mercilessly exposes some of the flaws in the organization." (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28369657 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28369657) I'll add that global/fully async remote work is even more merciless, especially on Agile figuring-it-out-as-we-go-along orgs. Communication has to be written and clear enough to avoid back-and-forth, changes are possible on the order of a day, not an hour so planning ahead and evaluating critical paths is more important, and everyone has to be able to pick up and put down work that's become blocked by someone on the other side of the planet. It's a tall order, but I'd like to think that the benefits are worth it for both individual and company.
  - ThePadawan 5y ago
    I recognize past experiences in what you describe - but here's the punchline: Working for a completely on-site company located in two buildings within 10 minutes' walking distance, it was still sometimes impossible to get hold of some people, or understand their attempts to communicate without going back-and-forth 3-4 times. I think the company I'm thinking of is simply also a "winner of remote work" because it already managed to survive despite massive mismanagement and miscommunication before remote work.
- 908B64B197 5y ago
  Just go work for an European Unicorn.
  - ThePadawan 5y ago
    ...do you have their phone number?
- exdsq 5y ago
  You can always join, work nights, and shift the hours over the first month or two. Probably worth it for a 2x pay increase.
SonOfKyuss 5y ago
Working parents in the US have definitely benefited from the flexibility that comes with remote work as well.
- pc86 5y ago
  Only to the extent that schools and daycares are still open.
co2benzoate 5y ago
The winners of remote work are all fleeing to New Zealand, leaving the rest to wallow in decaying infrastructure and a healthcare system bursting at the seams.
- j8hn 5y ago
  I wasn't aware that New Zealand are accepting immigrants right now. Which visa does NZ allow you to live there and work remotely?
  - co2benzoate 5y ago
    You'll have to ask the Google execs https://www.businessinsider.com/google-exec-reportedly-working-remote-after-opposing-it-for-staff-2021-7 https://www.businessinsider.com/google-exec-reportedly-worki... https://www.forbes.com/sites/siladityaray/2021/08/06/google-founder-larry-page-is-a-new-zealand-resident-officials-confirm-after-controversy-over-his-lockdown-visit/?sh=d679f8824135 https://www.forbes.com/sites/siladityaray/2021/08/06/google-...
    - j8hn 5y ago
      So are these special cases or are the winners of remote work all fleeing to New Zealand? Larry Page's son was transported by medavac to a hospital there. He's able to stay due to a visa with the requirement of a $7 million investment.
      - co2benzoate 5y ago
        Then you answered your own question about the type of visas you can get.
tonyedgecombe 5y ago
>The pandemic has accelerated globalization. Is that really the case? There is some evidence that globalisation had plateaued over the last decade or so. I can't find any recent evidence one way or the other. https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/world-trade-exports-constant-prices?time=1970..latest https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/world-trade-exports-const...
28367090 5y ago
The pandemic accelerated the end of globalization. Globalization is over. The US will become less and less involved in the other countries -- even less than it is now -- and corporations will not be hiring teams that are mix of time zones, languages, and cultures. They will continue to hire people with credentials like those in charge, who look like, speak like, and have the same goals / culture as those in charge. And that's going to be in US major cities.
- xyzelement 5y ago
  Your comment makes a lot of assertions without a single argument.
cblconfederate 5y ago
The winner of globalization was the US though

The Winners of Remote Work don't live in the United States. The pandemic has accelerated globalization.

by pvm3 5y ago

The Winners of Remote Work don't live in the United States. The pandemic has accelerated globalization.

Only if you consider Remote Global Work. As a European, it is very disheartening to see how many companies espouse "we are now embracing remote work company-wide", which on closer inspection means "California hours +-2h time difference".

ghaff 5y ago
California to Europe is tough for many things. I work US East Coast timezone and collaborate a lot with Europe--but that feels like it's getting near the limit for any regular synchronous activity unless one side or the other starts to work atypical hours.
- ThePadawan 5y ago
  I do totally get it. I only take an issue with the (maybe unintentional) duplicity of pretending that "remote work in the continental US" can only mean "remote work".
  - quadrifoliate 5y ago
    I have seen many European companies as well who do this unintentional duplicity of "remote" meaning "anywhere in the EU/EEA". In addition to the obvious time zone constraints, I think payroll taxes and such are a major regulatory boundary that you need to cross in addition to having "all your shit together" as one of the top comments puts it.
    - handrous 5y ago
      > In addition to the obvious time zone constraints, I think payroll taxes and such are a major regulatory boundary that you need to cross in addition to having "all your shit together" as one of the top comments puts it. This can be annoying even across state boundaries, let alone internationally, for smaller companies that aren't already operating in several states. Consider also things like group health insurance, which are often geographically bound (sometimes even to a single city).
      - ThePadawan 5y ago
        Right? It boggles the mind that the biggest companies on Earth are the likes of Instagram instead of a huge company called "Adapt" which takes care of all that between employee and employer as a third party.
        ghaff 5y ago
        I have no personal experience but I have been told that even if you farm a lot of things out there is a certain amount of paperwork (and cost) that you have to handle in-house.
        ThePadawan 5y ago
        Hm, that's a shame. That seems to me to be just accidental, not essential complexity, too.
        ghaff 5y ago
        Well, a lot of it is a patchwork of government rules and regulations. Here's a long post about it from Mitchell at HashiCorp: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17022563 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17022563
        ThePadawan 5y ago
        Right, that's exactly what I find baffling. Right now, if N companies want to hire in M countries, the total expenditure in HR departments is in the order of O(N*M), when it could (theoretically, ideally) be O(N + M).
        walshemj 5y ago
        Which would then crucify its employees and suck rent out of both sides. Also there are vast diferences in labor law between countries
nathanvanfleet 5y ago
It's not nearly as easy to have people in a timezone 16 hours offset than you might think. So I am not surprised that they would be two very different decisions.
- ThePadawan 5y ago
  Right, so that's the point where your job offer should say "Remote - US" or "Remote - UTC-8 +-3h". And I have seen a few companies do that! I would say that this is around 20% of the companies. The other 80% simply list those jobs as "Remote", so they show up on their job pages under all continents, or at least, under their "outside the US" filters. Then sometimes it's not mentioned at the top of the job offer, but in the footnotes with the "we hire regardless of disability etc." statements. All of these things are fine. They're just a far cry from that blog post that the CEO made 10 months into quarantine, talking about how the company will open itself to global remote work.
- not2b 5y ago
  I'm in California, and am currently interacting with developers and application engineers working in India, US East Coast, France, and Israel, and formerly China (haven't had to deal with that team lately). This means that evening or early morning meetings are sometimes needed. We try to keep it to a minimum, and this hits some people more than others.
- shubb 5y ago
  EU working with developer team in India. There are advantages and disadvantage - * EU team (e.g. presales) are not available half the day to answer queries and this creates delays, but also forces people to write good tickets if they want anything done * Conversely, even senior developer staff get half the day clear of meetings to do deep work or focus on internal meetings / mentoring * Thankfully this team are mature adults, but I've seen an us and them thing develop between engineering and the rest of the company elsewhere. It's natural when everyone outside engineering is short term incentivised to downplay technical debt and such. If it can happen when everyone is in the same building, I can definitely see how easily it could happen if only engineering are sat together and all the evil product owners are just angry faces on a screen.
mLuby 5y ago
It's unfortunate for North Americans who want to work elsewhere too. A globalized workforce is good for peace, prosperity, and human rights. Another comment pointed out that shared time zone "remote working mercilessly exposes some of the flaws in the organization." (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28369657 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28369657) I'll add that global/fully async remote work is even more merciless, especially on Agile figuring-it-out-as-we-go-along orgs. Communication has to be written and clear enough to avoid back-and-forth, changes are possible on the order of a day, not an hour so planning ahead and evaluating critical paths is more important, and everyone has to be able to pick up and put down work that's become blocked by someone on the other side of the planet. It's a tall order, but I'd like to think that the benefits are worth it for both individual and company.
- ThePadawan 5y ago
  I recognize past experiences in what you describe - but here's the punchline: Working for a completely on-site company located in two buildings within 10 minutes' walking distance, it was still sometimes impossible to get hold of some people, or understand their attempts to communicate without going back-and-forth 3-4 times. I think the company I'm thinking of is simply also a "winner of remote work" because it already managed to survive despite massive mismanagement and miscommunication before remote work.
908B64B197 5y ago
Just go work for an European Unicorn.
- ThePadawan 5y ago
  ...do you have their phone number?
exdsq 5y ago
You can always join, work nights, and shift the hours over the first month or two. Probably worth it for a 2x pay increase.

SonOfKyuss 5y ago

Working parents in the US have definitely benefited from the flexibility that comes with remote work as well.

pc86 5y ago
Only to the extent that schools and daycares are still open.

co2benzoate 5y ago

The winners of remote work are all fleeing to New Zealand, leaving the rest to wallow in decaying infrastructure and a healthcare system bursting at the seams.

j8hn 5y ago
I wasn't aware that New Zealand are accepting immigrants right now. Which visa does NZ allow you to live there and work remotely?
- co2benzoate 5y ago
  You'll have to ask the Google execs https://www.businessinsider.com/google-exec-reportedly-working-remote-after-opposing-it-for-staff-2021-7 https://www.businessinsider.com/google-exec-reportedly-worki... https://www.forbes.com/sites/siladityaray/2021/08/06/google-founder-larry-page-is-a-new-zealand-resident-officials-confirm-after-controversy-over-his-lockdown-visit/?sh=d679f8824135 https://www.forbes.com/sites/siladityaray/2021/08/06/google-...
  - j8hn 5y ago
    So are these special cases or are the winners of remote work all fleeing to New Zealand? Larry Page's son was transported by medavac to a hospital there. He's able to stay due to a visa with the requirement of a $7 million investment.
    - co2benzoate 5y ago
      Then you answered your own question about the type of visas you can get.

tonyedgecombe 5y ago

>The pandemic has accelerated globalization. Is that really the case? There is some evidence that globalisation had plateaued over the last decade or so. I can't find any recent evidence one way or the other. https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/world-trade-exports-constant-prices?time=1970..latest https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/world-trade-exports-const...

28367090 5y ago

The pandemic accelerated the end of globalization. Globalization is over. The US will become less and less involved in the other countries -- even less than it is now -- and corporations will not be hiring teams that are mix of time zones, languages, and cultures. They will continue to hire people with credentials like those in charge, who look like, speak like, and have the same goals / culture as those in charge. And that's going to be in US major cities.

xyzelement 5y ago
Your comment makes a lot of assertions without a single argument.

cblconfederate 5y ago

The winner of globalization was the US though