4 ms·

Sure but the point is that developers should have the option of rolling out their own solution if they don't need all the features Apple provides or agree with

Sure but the point is that developers should have the option of rolling out their own solution if they don't need all the features Apple provides or agree with the fee. This in turn creates competition which may reduce rates all around.

judge2020 5y ago
The common argument against that is that the 30% also goes to actually developing iOS - you could envision the margin Apple makes on every iPhone as one that goes towards the R&D costs of developing the hardware, while the post-sale revenue goes towards the post-sale costs of developing iOS (and all the updates they test/push out for 5+ years after the device is released).
- danieldisu 5y ago
  iPhone users pay the development of iOS, iphone users want to use an iPhone in part because all these third party apps. This is just them wanting more money, and according to latest earnings they already make a lot.
- wvenable 5y ago
  > The common argument against that is that the 30% also goes to actually developing iOS How were operating systems funded before vendors could take a cut of every transaction?
  - judge2020 5y ago
    They didn’t receive updates. Now Windows pushes ads in the OS as a mechanism of recouping the cost of developing and testing updates for old hardware.
    - wvenable 5y ago
      Operating systems have been getting automatic updates for over 20 years. And what 3rd party ads are in Windows? I don't have any.
      - threeseed 5y ago
        Here is how to disable the many forms of advertising on Windows 10: https://www.howtogeek.com/269331/how-to-disable-all-of-windows-10s-built-in-advertising/ https://www.howtogeek.com/269331/how-to-disable-all-of-windo... Also don't forget that there is a ridiculous amount of user behaviour telemetry and metadata that Microsoft has permission to use for any reason.
- madeofpalk 5y ago
  This isn't a common argument, it's just Apple's argument.
  - dmitryminkovsky 5y ago
    Nothing like a business exposing its alleged cost structure to try and justify passing on costs. It’s the worst argument. It’s not even an argument. It induces me to somehow be part of their business, when I’m not an employee, board member or even a shareholder. It’s TMI.
- pessimizer 5y ago
  It's weird using the argument that it's a shell game as a positive argument. "It's not a money grab, it's just a hidden fee!"
- vineyardmike 5y ago
  Apple admitted this wasn't true in a lawsuit. There were actual internal convos about how they didn't need as much money... > Separately, the documents show that in 2011, Schiller suggested that Apple could "ratchet down from 70/30 to 75/25 or even 80/20 if we can maintain a $1B a year run rate," in terms of App Store commissions, since the 30 percent commission rate would "not last forever." https://www.macrumors.com/2021/08/20/apple-sideloading-plans-ecosystem-lock-in-revealed/ https://www.macrumors.com/2021/08/20/apple-sideloading-plans...
  - judge2020 5y ago
    It’s not that they don’t need more money, it’s that, in my opinion, they also shouldn’t be forced to operate on razor-thin margins. What is an acceptable profit margin? There’s no clear answer so you’d be reliant on a judge or congress to determine that.
    - ThatPlayer 5y ago
      An acceptable profit margin would be based on actual costs, not a static 30% which means paid apps are subsidizing free apps or apps like Netflix and Amazon that do not take payment on iOS. Charge based on bandwidth/downloads, not on who is using their payment processor.
      - vineyardmike 5y ago
        > Charge based on bandwidth/downloads, not on who is using their payment processor. This obviously doesn't tell the whole story either. Some apps provide utility to the end user but don't monetize well. Those apps are valuable to have as a way to drive people to use app store, and keep developers educated.
orangepanda 5y ago
> if [developers] don't need all the features Some “features” are seen only by customers, e.g., managing all your subscriptions in one place. I can think of some services that would LOVE making cancelling a subscription more difficult. I don’t care about apple’s cut. Allowing sideloading instead would have been a win win for everyone

judge2020 5y ago

The common argument against that is that the 30% also goes to actually developing iOS - you could envision the margin Apple makes on every iPhone as one that goes towards the R&D costs of developing the hardware, while the post-sale revenue goes towards the post-sale costs of developing iOS (and all the updates they test/push out for 5+ years after the device is released).

danieldisu 5y ago
iPhone users pay the development of iOS, iphone users want to use an iPhone in part because all these third party apps. This is just them wanting more money, and according to latest earnings they already make a lot.
wvenable 5y ago
> The common argument against that is that the 30% also goes to actually developing iOS How were operating systems funded before vendors could take a cut of every transaction?
- judge2020 5y ago
  They didn’t receive updates. Now Windows pushes ads in the OS as a mechanism of recouping the cost of developing and testing updates for old hardware.
  - wvenable 5y ago
    Operating systems have been getting automatic updates for over 20 years. And what 3rd party ads are in Windows? I don't have any.
    - threeseed 5y ago
      Here is how to disable the many forms of advertising on Windows 10: https://www.howtogeek.com/269331/how-to-disable-all-of-windows-10s-built-in-advertising/ https://www.howtogeek.com/269331/how-to-disable-all-of-windo... Also don't forget that there is a ridiculous amount of user behaviour telemetry and metadata that Microsoft has permission to use for any reason.
madeofpalk 5y ago
This isn't a common argument, it's just Apple's argument.
- dmitryminkovsky 5y ago
  Nothing like a business exposing its alleged cost structure to try and justify passing on costs. It’s the worst argument. It’s not even an argument. It induces me to somehow be part of their business, when I’m not an employee, board member or even a shareholder. It’s TMI.
pessimizer 5y ago
It's weird using the argument that it's a shell game as a positive argument. "It's not a money grab, it's just a hidden fee!"
vineyardmike 5y ago
Apple admitted this wasn't true in a lawsuit. There were actual internal convos about how they didn't need as much money... > Separately, the documents show that in 2011, Schiller suggested that Apple could "ratchet down from 70/30 to 75/25 or even 80/20 if we can maintain a $1B a year run rate," in terms of App Store commissions, since the 30 percent commission rate would "not last forever." https://www.macrumors.com/2021/08/20/apple-sideloading-plans-ecosystem-lock-in-revealed/ https://www.macrumors.com/2021/08/20/apple-sideloading-plans...
- judge2020 5y ago
  It’s not that they don’t need more money, it’s that, in my opinion, they also shouldn’t be forced to operate on razor-thin margins. What is an acceptable profit margin? There’s no clear answer so you’d be reliant on a judge or congress to determine that.
  - ThatPlayer 5y ago
    An acceptable profit margin would be based on actual costs, not a static 30% which means paid apps are subsidizing free apps or apps like Netflix and Amazon that do not take payment on iOS. Charge based on bandwidth/downloads, not on who is using their payment processor.
    - vineyardmike 5y ago
      > Charge based on bandwidth/downloads, not on who is using their payment processor. This obviously doesn't tell the whole story either. Some apps provide utility to the end user but don't monetize well. Those apps are valuable to have as a way to drive people to use app store, and keep developers educated.

orangepanda 5y ago

> if [developers] don't need all the features Some “features” are seen only by customers, e.g., managing all your subscriptions in one place. I can think of some services that would LOVE making cancelling a subscription more difficult. I don’t care about apple’s cut. Allowing sideloading instead would have been a win win for everyone