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Absolutely. The German constitution mandates students be able to obtain religious education in public school as part of regular curriculum, prohibits the govern

Absolutely. The German constitution mandates students be able to obtain religious education in public school as part of regular curriculum, prohibits the government from interfering in any religious organization and mandates that the government collect member tithes as part of tax collection for any religious group registered as a PLC at their request. The ruling party of Germany is expressly religious, the Christian Democratic Union. There's religious pluralism in Germany and all religions have the same benefits, but the idea of what those religions may do is not so intuitive from us in North America.

cat199 5y ago
> the idea of what those religions may do is not so intuitive from us in North America .. pretty sure you can set up religious sponsored/focused housing in NA as well
belter 5y ago
But besides the money collection there are also the tax exemptions right? It looks lovely... "The foundation deed specified that the housing complex was to exist “in perpetuity” and to be “further developed.” The philosophy behind it can be summarized as being to “provide assistance, not charity, to people in need so they can help themselves.” There are a total of nine foundations established by the Fugger family in Augsburg that have been in continuous existence since the 16th century. In addition to the Fuggerei, there are medical facilities, an infirmary, and a foundation to contribute to the salvation of the Fugger family, among others. According to an inscription on a tablet displayed at the Fuggerei, the Fugger family established the foundation to “reimburse God the money that he has generously bestowed upon the family.” "Paupers or beggars are not eligible. A person that has been accepted for residence is required to say three daily prayers for the Fugger family" https://blogs.loc.gov/law/2021/08/500-year-anniversary-of-the-fuggerei-the-oldest-social-housing-complex-in-the-world/ https://blogs.loc.gov/law/2021/08/500-year-anniversary-of-th... Its going for a long time: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fugger_family https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fugger_family And many foundations: https://www.fugger.de/en/foundations https://www.fugger.de/en/foundations I am sorry ...the business man in me...every time I see the word foundation I see only one thing. Only business vehicle where you are tax exempt... while at the same time still benefiting from the foundation assets. "Forget about the Gates Foundation. The world’s biggest charity owns IKEA — which is not only devoted to interior design." https://medium.com/@jurgeng/ikeas-tax-scheme-a-corporate-structure-designed-to-facilitate-profit-shifting-and-tax-avoidance-798caf842fb6 https://medium.com/@jurgeng/ikeas-tax-scheme-a-corporate-str... https://ikeafoundation.org/ https://ikeafoundation.org/
belter 5y ago
I am sorry but I have a follow up question maybe you are able to elaborate as you mentioned: "There's religious pluralism in Germany" Scientology has an IRS tax exemption in the US as another religion, but it seems in Germany the state has made their life quite difficult. Does German law provides for a clear specification of how to define a religion?
- ordinaryradical 5y ago
  They defined Scientology as a pyramid scheme (rightly) because of its “pay for revelation” business model. Probably not the most meaningful example as Scientology had to be pretty egregious to get disqualified.
  - belter 5y ago
    You will not find an advocate of Scientology in me :-)) But you will find an advocate of equal treatment under the law and the rule of law. Apparently members have stronger restrictions than those applied to persons who express extreme right views: "Scientologists in Germany face specific political and economic restrictions. They are barred from membership in some major political parties, and businesses and other employers use so-called "sect filters" to expose a prospective business partner's or employee's association with the organization." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientology_in_Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientology_in_Germany I am just trying to check who are the committees who define what is an acceptable religion, how and under what legal framework.
    - Tomte 5y ago
      In the case of political parties: they decide themselves. The large parties all have lists of clubs and informal organizations where membership is incompatible with party membership. (No major party allows membership in another party, except european sister parties in other countries, but it's possible, and some smaller parties allow it)
    - belter 5y ago
      As I said, not defending Scientology here at all, but from the wikipedia article found this case interesting: "In 2019, the Munich Labor court sided with the director of personnel of Haus der Kunst, a well-known artistic museum. He had been removed from his position after working for 22 years because it was discovered that he was a Scientologist. The case was settled and the director of personnel was paid 110,000 euro as severance and received a full pension. Many Germany courts also ruled the legitimacy of Scientology as a religion. In 2019, Ahmed Shaheed and Fernand de Varennes who were UN Special Rapporteurs on freedom of religion and on minority issues wrote to Germany that, "discriminating against those who profess a certain belief is illegal under international human rights law, irrespective of whether the belief is religious or merely philosophical or cultural."
dnh44 5y ago
Regarding the church tax, if you move to Germany you'll be ask what religion your are and unless you answer atheist you'll have to start paying a church tax and it appears to be quite a hassle to get out of it. https://www.settle-in-berlin.com/stop-paying-german-church-tax/ https://www.settle-in-berlin.com/stop-paying-german-church-t...
- belter 5y ago
  "Church tax in Germany is a 8-9% surcharge on top of your income tax." That is a stunning amount. I wonder how many Berlin based Startup Developers are having a second look at the salary receipt right now...
  - leipert 5y ago
    Slight clarification here, it is way less than 8-9% of your gross salary. I had a look when I was a church member, and it was 2% of my gross salary. It was indeed 8% of the amount of my income tax. I think the way it is calculated (depending on the federal state your in): Gross salary -> income tax -> 8 to 9% of the income tax = church tax.
  - harimau777 5y ago
    At least in Christianity, 10% is the traditional donation to the Church. So that doesn't necessarily sound out of line. On the other hand, some people split the 10% between the Church and secular charities which wouldn't be possible in this case.
- Tomte 5y ago
  > and it appears to be quite a hassle to get out of it. Five minutes at the local courthouse, 20 Euros or so, and it's effective next month. Of course, during Corona it can be more difficult to get an appointment, and the fee can vary from state to state, but all in all it's easy to get out.
- alex_young 5y ago
  The same system exists in Switzerland. While living there, and after registering, a priest visited my home to investigate our nonbeliever status. My spouse inadvertently mentioned her Jewish ancestry, at which point the priest offered to send a Rabbi instead, before she could say that she wasn’t then and had never been observant.
cycomanic 5y ago
Despite (or maybe because? ) of all of this religion plays a much smaller role both in everyday life as well as politics compared to the US.
- Barrin92 5y ago
  It's exactly because of it. This cooperative system gives the state significant control over the church, which was the original reason for this sort of semi-public funding. German priests are trained in public universities and the state has influence on the curriculum. Them most extreme form of religions you will always find outside of the system.
hnbad 5y ago
> all religions have the same benefits That is true in theory but not in practice. To be recognized you need to be organized as a Körperschaft öffentlichen Rechts which isn't exactly trivial. In practice the Catholic church and the "Evangelical church of Germany" (a confederation of various mostly independent parishes, mostly Lutheran) are the two big ones and everything else barely passes as a rounding error (e.g. there seems to be only one Muslim organization and while they reflect a sect mostly originating in Turkey, they're hardly the largest Muslim sect in Germany). Also for example the two primary public broadcasting channels ARD and ZDF have a Catholic and Lutheran bias (although this mostly manifests in a handful of very short theological opinion pieces paid for by the respective churches and clergy of the two religious orientations being invited every time ethical concerns are discussed). Saying "all religions have the same benefit" is a lot like saying all people are equally forbidden from sleeping under bridges regardless of their income. It's not exactly an equal playing field and a lot of the influence of the churches comes down to not just the number of registered members but also feudal property rights and pre-existing contracts (e.g. the Catholic church is one of the few entities that legitimately "owns" land in Germany whereas normally legal subjects are only granted "ownership" conditionally). And let's not get into public sector institutions like hospitals and schools being operated by one of the two churches and personnel being subject to church labor laws while the majority of the operating costs (in some cases even 100%) are footed by the state. We only call it pluralism because Martin Luther was successful. Much like our so-called federalism (because Germany was still a lose collection of functionally mostly independent states until around the time of the American Civil War) it's really more of an accident of history that we later rebranded as something desirable.
MomoXenosaga 5y ago
It has been argued that the complete implosion of Christianity in the Netherlands was due to the creation of a welfare state. The Church was replaced by an irreligious state and that was it.

cat199 5y ago

> the idea of what those religions may do is not so intuitive from us in North America .. pretty sure you can set up religious sponsored/focused housing in NA as well

belter 5y ago

But besides the money collection there are also the tax exemptions right? It looks lovely... "The foundation deed specified that the housing complex was to exist “in perpetuity” and to be “further developed.” The philosophy behind it can be summarized as being to “provide assistance, not charity, to people in need so they can help themselves.” There are a total of nine foundations established by the Fugger family in Augsburg that have been in continuous existence since the 16th century. In addition to the Fuggerei, there are medical facilities, an infirmary, and a foundation to contribute to the salvation of the Fugger family, among others. According to an inscription on a tablet displayed at the Fuggerei, the Fugger family established the foundation to “reimburse God the money that he has generously bestowed upon the family.” "Paupers or beggars are not eligible. A person that has been accepted for residence is required to say three daily prayers for the Fugger family" https://blogs.loc.gov/law/2021/08/500-year-anniversary-of-the-fuggerei-the-oldest-social-housing-complex-in-the-world/ https://blogs.loc.gov/law/2021/08/500-year-anniversary-of-th... Its going for a long time: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fugger_family https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fugger_family And many foundations: https://www.fugger.de/en/foundations https://www.fugger.de/en/foundations I am sorry ...the business man in me...every time I see the word foundation I see only one thing. Only business vehicle where you are tax exempt... while at the same time still benefiting from the foundation assets. "Forget about the Gates Foundation. The world’s biggest charity owns IKEA — which is not only devoted to interior design." https://medium.com/@jurgeng/ikeas-tax-scheme-a-corporate-structure-designed-to-facilitate-profit-shifting-and-tax-avoidance-798caf842fb6 https://medium.com/@jurgeng/ikeas-tax-scheme-a-corporate-str... https://ikeafoundation.org/ https://ikeafoundation.org/

belter 5y ago

I am sorry but I have a follow up question maybe you are able to elaborate as you mentioned: "There's religious pluralism in Germany" Scientology has an IRS tax exemption in the US as another religion, but it seems in Germany the state has made their life quite difficult. Does German law provides for a clear specification of how to define a religion?

ordinaryradical 5y ago
They defined Scientology as a pyramid scheme (rightly) because of its “pay for revelation” business model. Probably not the most meaningful example as Scientology had to be pretty egregious to get disqualified.
- belter 5y ago
  You will not find an advocate of Scientology in me :-)) But you will find an advocate of equal treatment under the law and the rule of law. Apparently members have stronger restrictions than those applied to persons who express extreme right views: "Scientologists in Germany face specific political and economic restrictions. They are barred from membership in some major political parties, and businesses and other employers use so-called "sect filters" to expose a prospective business partner's or employee's association with the organization." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientology_in_Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientology_in_Germany I am just trying to check who are the committees who define what is an acceptable religion, how and under what legal framework.
  - Tomte 5y ago
    In the case of political parties: they decide themselves. The large parties all have lists of clubs and informal organizations where membership is incompatible with party membership. (No major party allows membership in another party, except european sister parties in other countries, but it's possible, and some smaller parties allow it)
  - belter 5y ago
    As I said, not defending Scientology here at all, but from the wikipedia article found this case interesting: "In 2019, the Munich Labor court sided with the director of personnel of Haus der Kunst, a well-known artistic museum. He had been removed from his position after working for 22 years because it was discovered that he was a Scientologist. The case was settled and the director of personnel was paid 110,000 euro as severance and received a full pension. Many Germany courts also ruled the legitimacy of Scientology as a religion. In 2019, Ahmed Shaheed and Fernand de Varennes who were UN Special Rapporteurs on freedom of religion and on minority issues wrote to Germany that, "discriminating against those who profess a certain belief is illegal under international human rights law, irrespective of whether the belief is religious or merely philosophical or cultural."

dnh44 5y ago

Regarding the church tax, if you move to Germany you'll be ask what religion your are and unless you answer atheist you'll have to start paying a church tax and it appears to be quite a hassle to get out of it. https://www.settle-in-berlin.com/stop-paying-german-church-tax/ https://www.settle-in-berlin.com/stop-paying-german-church-t...

belter 5y ago
"Church tax in Germany is a 8-9% surcharge on top of your income tax." That is a stunning amount. I wonder how many Berlin based Startup Developers are having a second look at the salary receipt right now...
- leipert 5y ago
  Slight clarification here, it is way less than 8-9% of your gross salary. I had a look when I was a church member, and it was 2% of my gross salary. It was indeed 8% of the amount of my income tax. I think the way it is calculated (depending on the federal state your in): Gross salary -> income tax -> 8 to 9% of the income tax = church tax.
- harimau777 5y ago
  At least in Christianity, 10% is the traditional donation to the Church. So that doesn't necessarily sound out of line. On the other hand, some people split the 10% between the Church and secular charities which wouldn't be possible in this case.
Tomte 5y ago
> and it appears to be quite a hassle to get out of it. Five minutes at the local courthouse, 20 Euros or so, and it's effective next month. Of course, during Corona it can be more difficult to get an appointment, and the fee can vary from state to state, but all in all it's easy to get out.
alex_young 5y ago
The same system exists in Switzerland. While living there, and after registering, a priest visited my home to investigate our nonbeliever status. My spouse inadvertently mentioned her Jewish ancestry, at which point the priest offered to send a Rabbi instead, before she could say that she wasn’t then and had never been observant.

cycomanic 5y ago

Despite (or maybe because? ) of all of this religion plays a much smaller role both in everyday life as well as politics compared to the US.

Barrin92 5y ago
It's exactly because of it. This cooperative system gives the state significant control over the church, which was the original reason for this sort of semi-public funding. German priests are trained in public universities and the state has influence on the curriculum. Them most extreme form of religions you will always find outside of the system.

hnbad 5y ago

> all religions have the same benefits That is true in theory but not in practice. To be recognized you need to be organized as a Körperschaft öffentlichen Rechts which isn't exactly trivial. In practice the Catholic church and the "Evangelical church of Germany" (a confederation of various mostly independent parishes, mostly Lutheran) are the two big ones and everything else barely passes as a rounding error (e.g. there seems to be only one Muslim organization and while they reflect a sect mostly originating in Turkey, they're hardly the largest Muslim sect in Germany). Also for example the two primary public broadcasting channels ARD and ZDF have a Catholic and Lutheran bias (although this mostly manifests in a handful of very short theological opinion pieces paid for by the respective churches and clergy of the two religious orientations being invited every time ethical concerns are discussed). Saying "all religions have the same benefit" is a lot like saying all people are equally forbidden from sleeping under bridges regardless of their income. It's not exactly an equal playing field and a lot of the influence of the churches comes down to not just the number of registered members but also feudal property rights and pre-existing contracts (e.g. the Catholic church is one of the few entities that legitimately "owns" land in Germany whereas normally legal subjects are only granted "ownership" conditionally). And let's not get into public sector institutions like hospitals and schools being operated by one of the two churches and personnel being subject to church labor laws while the majority of the operating costs (in some cases even 100%) are footed by the state. We only call it pluralism because Martin Luther was successful. Much like our so-called federalism (because Germany was still a lose collection of functionally mostly independent states until around the time of the American Civil War) it's really more of an accident of history that we later rebranded as something desirable.

MomoXenosaga 5y ago

It has been argued that the complete implosion of Christianity in the Netherlands was due to the creation of a welfare state. The Church was replaced by an irreligious state and that was it.