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My perception of the mindset of the typical liberal in the past was that it was more about making change for the benefit of everyone in the country (don’t worry

My perception of the mindset of the typical liberal in the past was that it was more about making change for the benefit of everyone in the country (don’t worry conservatives , this will work out for the best). Now it is more about making change that benefits some at the expense of others (screw you conservatives). In order to push political agendas like this, political opposition needs to be more negatively portrayed and demonized. My perception of conservatives is that they are trending in this direction too, and the result is more fracturing of our societies.

larksimian 5y ago
'Liberal' and 'conservative' are just labels that no longer describe the same ideologies as in the past. 19th C liberals were sort of like modern day libertarians, but in the context of the European monarchies at the time which were explicitly oppressive. 20th century progressives with their universal social programs were social democrats. Modern day liberals are split between 'centrist' neo-liberals and more hardcore leftists. The neo-libs are basically still trying to promote universalish improvement, but are not willing to tax their corporate donors to do it. So all they're left with is culture war posturing and legislation, since that's fiscally free. The more hardcore leftists, in America, seem to heavily skew towards helping particular disadvantaged groups, as opposed to the universalizing efforts of early 20th C socialists(be it racial or sexual minorities or whatever). And some of these groups care more about equality than they do absolute improvement for everyone. As for conservatives, modern day American conservatism is HARD reactionary and in no way conservative. The social programs they are trying to privatize and dismantle have existed for 60-80 years. The conservative position would be to preserve things like Social Security and Medicare. If anything the most conservative force, when it comes to the role of government, in American politics right now are the Centrist Democrats, since they're the party of small tweaks.
- andrew_ 5y ago
  It's curious that you see a spectrum in the left, but not in the right. That might suggest bias, but I'd like to give you the benefit of doubt. There is no universal conservative position, nor are all conservatives reactionary. Just as those far to the left have strayed from classical liberalism, those far to the right have strayed from classical conservatism. With the rampant labeling and tribalism so popular these days, many of us just don't know what political camp we fit into anymore. Update: If you're downvoting, please do share why, or share a critique or rebuttal. I'd genuinely like to read some opposing opinions. I had thought that was a fair reply to the parent as the political spectrum in U.S. politics has been rather well-documented as diverse both to the left and to the right.
  - AmericanChopper 5y ago
    I’m always a bit entertained by people who claim they want to express a non-biased view of partisan dynamics, and then proceed to express something that is a perfect representation of the fundamental attribution error. Personally I think the primary contention that exists between the dogma of the left and the right is just the contention between collectivism and individualism. But outliers aside, I don’t think you end up with substantially different policies from one side or the other, regardless of the contrast in the dogma. I don’t think members of either tribe are substantially different in their dogmatism, reactionism… or in their proclivity to deeply reflect on the views they hold. For any person who finds themselves substantially aligned with a mainstream political ideology, I think the chance that they’ve put a substantial amount of critical thought into their world view is very close to 0.
    - andrew_ 5y ago
      > is just the contention between collectivism and individualism Yes. > I’m always a bit entertained by people who claim they want to express a non-biased view of partisan dynamics, and then proceed to express something that is a perfect representation of the fundamental attribution error. Were you commenting on the parent to my reply, or to my reply specifically? Genuine curiosity.
      - AmericanChopper 5y ago
        Sorry for not being clear, I think the error is in the comment above yours. I think your comment is very level headed.
    - larksimian 5y ago
      I guess you got downvoted for both-sidesing it(Upvoted, btw :D)? I mean both parties do quite suck, even though I still think the GOP is actively harmful, while the Democratic party has good ideas that it fails to build on. The actual party policies only really diverge on social issues. Economic policy consensus has been corporatist since the Reagan years. The main difference is the democrats are willing to blast out the occasional one-off stimulus and the GOP is also willing to do that but a smaller one-off stimulus. I don't really see collectivism vs individualism as a left-right split. The religious conservative wing of the right is culturally collectivist, the catholic conservatives are also pretty economically collectivist. The liberal mainstream is highly culturally individualistic(well... within the boundaries of acceptable lib behavior). The left can be almost culturally atomistic, if you go into the disown your racist/homophobic relatives areas of the ideology.
jdsleppy 5y ago
The big ticket, agreed upon progressive priorities are still for the benefit of all: Green New Deal, Medicare for all, accessible higher education. I find it more difficult to find policies for the common good coming from conservatives these days. Does anyone have examples?
- edgyquant 5y ago
  The reason you don't know any is because >policies for the common good coming Is a political thing. You disagree with the average conservative on what constitutes policies for the common good.
- fidesomnes 5y ago
  Mandatory sex change for all white males would be good too.
- AnimalMuppet 5y ago
  The (fiscal) conservative view of those items is that paying for them is going to create poverty, or at least a lot of people being less well off because of the taxes. (And that Modern Monetary Theory is wishful thinking that doesn't work in reality.) The conservatives could be wrong. But they aren't just hard-hearted Scrooge McDuck types who don't want to pay for something that will benefit the poors.

larksimian 5y ago

'Liberal' and 'conservative' are just labels that no longer describe the same ideologies as in the past. 19th C liberals were sort of like modern day libertarians, but in the context of the European monarchies at the time which were explicitly oppressive. 20th century progressives with their universal social programs were social democrats. Modern day liberals are split between 'centrist' neo-liberals and more hardcore leftists. The neo-libs are basically still trying to promote universalish improvement, but are not willing to tax their corporate donors to do it. So all they're left with is culture war posturing and legislation, since that's fiscally free. The more hardcore leftists, in America, seem to heavily skew towards helping particular disadvantaged groups, as opposed to the universalizing efforts of early 20th C socialists(be it racial or sexual minorities or whatever). And some of these groups care more about equality than they do absolute improvement for everyone. As for conservatives, modern day American conservatism is HARD reactionary and in no way conservative. The social programs they are trying to privatize and dismantle have existed for 60-80 years. The conservative position would be to preserve things like Social Security and Medicare. If anything the most conservative force, when it comes to the role of government, in American politics right now are the Centrist Democrats, since they're the party of small tweaks.

andrew_ 5y ago
It's curious that you see a spectrum in the left, but not in the right. That might suggest bias, but I'd like to give you the benefit of doubt. There is no universal conservative position, nor are all conservatives reactionary. Just as those far to the left have strayed from classical liberalism, those far to the right have strayed from classical conservatism. With the rampant labeling and tribalism so popular these days, many of us just don't know what political camp we fit into anymore. Update: If you're downvoting, please do share why, or share a critique or rebuttal. I'd genuinely like to read some opposing opinions. I had thought that was a fair reply to the parent as the political spectrum in U.S. politics has been rather well-documented as diverse both to the left and to the right.
- AmericanChopper 5y ago
  I’m always a bit entertained by people who claim they want to express a non-biased view of partisan dynamics, and then proceed to express something that is a perfect representation of the fundamental attribution error. Personally I think the primary contention that exists between the dogma of the left and the right is just the contention between collectivism and individualism. But outliers aside, I don’t think you end up with substantially different policies from one side or the other, regardless of the contrast in the dogma. I don’t think members of either tribe are substantially different in their dogmatism, reactionism… or in their proclivity to deeply reflect on the views they hold. For any person who finds themselves substantially aligned with a mainstream political ideology, I think the chance that they’ve put a substantial amount of critical thought into their world view is very close to 0.
  - andrew_ 5y ago
    > is just the contention between collectivism and individualism Yes. > I’m always a bit entertained by people who claim they want to express a non-biased view of partisan dynamics, and then proceed to express something that is a perfect representation of the fundamental attribution error. Were you commenting on the parent to my reply, or to my reply specifically? Genuine curiosity.
    - AmericanChopper 5y ago
      Sorry for not being clear, I think the error is in the comment above yours. I think your comment is very level headed.
  - larksimian 5y ago
    I guess you got downvoted for both-sidesing it(Upvoted, btw :D)? I mean both parties do quite suck, even though I still think the GOP is actively harmful, while the Democratic party has good ideas that it fails to build on. The actual party policies only really diverge on social issues. Economic policy consensus has been corporatist since the Reagan years. The main difference is the democrats are willing to blast out the occasional one-off stimulus and the GOP is also willing to do that but a smaller one-off stimulus. I don't really see collectivism vs individualism as a left-right split. The religious conservative wing of the right is culturally collectivist, the catholic conservatives are also pretty economically collectivist. The liberal mainstream is highly culturally individualistic(well... within the boundaries of acceptable lib behavior). The left can be almost culturally atomistic, if you go into the disown your racist/homophobic relatives areas of the ideology.

jdsleppy 5y ago

The big ticket, agreed upon progressive priorities are still for the benefit of all: Green New Deal, Medicare for all, accessible higher education. I find it more difficult to find policies for the common good coming from conservatives these days. Does anyone have examples?

edgyquant 5y ago
The reason you don't know any is because >policies for the common good coming Is a political thing. You disagree with the average conservative on what constitutes policies for the common good.
fidesomnes 5y ago
Mandatory sex change for all white males would be good too.
AnimalMuppet 5y ago
The (fiscal) conservative view of those items is that paying for them is going to create poverty, or at least a lot of people being less well off because of the taxes. (And that Modern Monetary Theory is wishful thinking that doesn't work in reality.) The conservatives could be wrong. But they aren't just hard-hearted Scrooge McDuck types who don't want to pay for something that will benefit the poors.