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I think what I mean is not even taking out frustrations. This behavior doesn't need an a priori frustration. That is the big issue. I'm able to forgive a frust

I think what I mean is not even taking out frustrations. This behavior doesn't need an a priori frustration. That is the big issue. I'm able to forgive a frustration. You cut me off, you have a bad day/parent in hospital - I'm able to live with that. That is in stoicism, radical acceptance etc. You do it just because - it's a different animal. "Just because" meaning, you take the power. I'm finding it hard to discuss social hierarchies. They clearly exist. I suspect they have a much greater influence on many things, depression for example (seems to me like a "self own", making oneself lower in the hierarchy, maybe as a survival strategy, but coming with unintended consequences). But people are unwilling to talk about it or get political very fast, because it seems to all hint to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Might_Is_Right https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Might_Is_Right.

altcognito 5y ago
There is a strong argument that cooperative populations are more effective/efficient than non-cooperative. Structures and processes that place a high value on all people and their many quirks instead of conformity to an arbitrary leader are likely to do better in most situations than ones that don’t.
- Thiez 5y ago
  > There is a strong argument that cooperative populations are more effective/efficient than non-cooperative. Which probably means being at the top of the social hierarchy in such a population is even more valuable.
  - altcognito 5y ago
    Valuable how? I realize that altruism is an unpopular concept, but it exists nature and works quite well when civilization is placed under the greatest survival pressures. Selfishness is a luxury humans indulge in because those pressures are quite weak in modern days.
  - 8jef 5y ago
    Being at the top of the social hierarchy in a cooperative environment is not necessarily valuable, probably not even pleasurable, at all. Because true cooperation can either exist without a top, when the experience is mostly p2p, or with a benevolent top painstakingly at the service of the entire community. So if your commentary meant valuable as in dedicated to the point that the individuals at the top become shit sponges for everyone else and do die as saints or martyrs, then yes, it is very valuable. That being said, it depends on where you put value in life.
- acmdas 5y ago
  Not sure that history would prove that out. Highly structured, militaristic colonial powers (Inca and Aztec, Mandarin Chinese, Vedic Indian, Persian, Egyptian, Roman, Western European) all had pretty good runs. Have there been societies that "place a high value on all people and their many quirks instead of conformity to an arbitrary leader" who have been dominant for spans of centuries? I can't think of any.
InfiniteRand 5y ago
Here's the question though, is it natural to abuse might? Yes, bullies might fear no consequences, but why do they even care about the existence of the other kids? What makes bullying pleasurable to them and preferable to staring out the window and watching the world go by

altcognito 5y ago

There is a strong argument that cooperative populations are more effective/efficient than non-cooperative. Structures and processes that place a high value on all people and their many quirks instead of conformity to an arbitrary leader are likely to do better in most situations than ones that don’t.

Thiez 5y ago
> There is a strong argument that cooperative populations are more effective/efficient than non-cooperative. Which probably means being at the top of the social hierarchy in such a population is even more valuable.
- altcognito 5y ago
  Valuable how? I realize that altruism is an unpopular concept, but it exists nature and works quite well when civilization is placed under the greatest survival pressures. Selfishness is a luxury humans indulge in because those pressures are quite weak in modern days.
- 8jef 5y ago
  Being at the top of the social hierarchy in a cooperative environment is not necessarily valuable, probably not even pleasurable, at all. Because true cooperation can either exist without a top, when the experience is mostly p2p, or with a benevolent top painstakingly at the service of the entire community. So if your commentary meant valuable as in dedicated to the point that the individuals at the top become shit sponges for everyone else and do die as saints or martyrs, then yes, it is very valuable. That being said, it depends on where you put value in life.
acmdas 5y ago
Not sure that history would prove that out. Highly structured, militaristic colonial powers (Inca and Aztec, Mandarin Chinese, Vedic Indian, Persian, Egyptian, Roman, Western European) all had pretty good runs. Have there been societies that "place a high value on all people and their many quirks instead of conformity to an arbitrary leader" who have been dominant for spans of centuries? I can't think of any.

InfiniteRand 5y ago

Here's the question though, is it natural to abuse might? Yes, bullies might fear no consequences, but why do they even care about the existence of the other kids? What makes bullying pleasurable to them and preferable to staring out the window and watching the world go by