4 ms·

I don't want to start a us-vs-commies flame war but I'm finding it ironic that not a week ago someone was trying to tell me that american democracy is more of a

by lhorie 5y ago

I don't want to start a us-vs-commies flame war but I'm finding it ironic that not a week ago someone was trying to tell me that american democracy is more of a plutocracy... Something that people don't seem to realize about China is that CCP values are supported by a majority of Chinese people. > What other word would you use to describe the Chinese government? I strongly suggest getting out of your comfort zone and go talk to some mainland Chinese people (preferably not the living-in-america ones). You'll find that they describe it with words like "unified" (which, for record, I also consider a loaded term).

danrocks 5y ago
Half-truth here. Younger people, recently more influenced by Xi Jinping's heavier hand in dispersing Marxist indoctrination, are indeed very supportive of the CCP ("generation N"). Other demographics, specially in southern China, aren't, but they can't speak up or they'll get prosecuted with "picking quarrels and provoking trouble".
- lhorie 5y ago
  I mean, I'm not trying to insinuate that every Chinese always agrees with the government, that's just silly. Even in the US, a good chunk of the population always disagrees with whatever is the political topic du jour... All I'm saying is that a bunch stuff happening in China does have a sizable amount of public approval, even if news articles make it sound like no one could possibly want it.
  - petersellers 5y ago
    Honest question - how do you accurately gauge public approval in a country like China?
- Can_Not 5y ago
  > Marxist indoctrination As opposed to good old fashion American indoctrination.
cloverich 5y ago
...is it possible for it to not be unified? I.e. are opposition groups free to run for office and oppose the CCP in china? If not wouldn't describing it as unified be a bit ironic at best, and disingenuous (but still ironic, for a different reason) at worse? Is it possible to get honest opinions online of the CCP? I.e. if someone thinks Xi is the worst leader to ever hold office in China, would they be free to say so publicly and on the (online) record?
- lhorie 5y ago
  You're arguing from the ideology that arbitrary freedom is good, whereas China operates under a "do what's good for you" sort of ideology. If we think about those two ideologies, one could flip your "is it possible for it to not be unified" to "is it possible for it to not have freedom" to illustrate the inherent ideological bias in the question. It may seem like an attempt at being inflammatory, but consider that for vaccines, for example, many people actually believe that we shouldn't get to decide against medical recommendation. I posit that neither ideology is necessarily superior, given that empirically we know of both good and bad outcomes for both sides (e.g. your argument about their lack of freedom of speech vs theirs about our botched covid handling due to "freedom" SJWs) And to reiterate: I do think "unified" is a loaded term: it implies everyone should be on board with whatever the CCP decides, because it's for the "common good", when in reality that's not a belief held equally by everyone. (Incidentally, it also implies that the US is functionally stuck on inaction due political bickering, a position that I find somewhat accurate, especially on matters of public welfare, e.g. healthcare reform) Personally, I think always coloring things with one ideology doesn't work because each topic is different, hence my suggestion to seek different opinions outside of our own echo chambers.

by lhorie 5y ago

danrocks 5y ago

Half-truth here. Younger people, recently more influenced by Xi Jinping's heavier hand in dispersing Marxist indoctrination, are indeed very supportive of the CCP ("generation N"). Other demographics, specially in southern China, aren't, but they can't speak up or they'll get prosecuted with "picking quarrels and provoking trouble".

lhorie 5y ago
I mean, I'm not trying to insinuate that every Chinese always agrees with the government, that's just silly. Even in the US, a good chunk of the population always disagrees with whatever is the political topic du jour... All I'm saying is that a bunch stuff happening in China does have a sizable amount of public approval, even if news articles make it sound like no one could possibly want it.
- petersellers 5y ago
  Honest question - how do you accurately gauge public approval in a country like China?
Can_Not 5y ago
> Marxist indoctrination As opposed to good old fashion American indoctrination.

cloverich 5y ago

...is it possible for it to not be unified? I.e. are opposition groups free to run for office and oppose the CCP in china? If not wouldn't describing it as unified be a bit ironic at best, and disingenuous (but still ironic, for a different reason) at worse? Is it possible to get honest opinions online of the CCP? I.e. if someone thinks Xi is the worst leader to ever hold office in China, would they be free to say so publicly and on the (online) record?

lhorie 5y ago
You're arguing from the ideology that arbitrary freedom is good, whereas China operates under a "do what's good for you" sort of ideology. If we think about those two ideologies, one could flip your "is it possible for it to not be unified" to "is it possible for it to not have freedom" to illustrate the inherent ideological bias in the question. It may seem like an attempt at being inflammatory, but consider that for vaccines, for example, many people actually believe that we shouldn't get to decide against medical recommendation. I posit that neither ideology is necessarily superior, given that empirically we know of both good and bad outcomes for both sides (e.g. your argument about their lack of freedom of speech vs theirs about our botched covid handling due to "freedom" SJWs) And to reiterate: I do think "unified" is a loaded term: it implies everyone should be on board with whatever the CCP decides, because it's for the "common good", when in reality that's not a belief held equally by everyone. (Incidentally, it also implies that the US is functionally stuck on inaction due political bickering, a position that I find somewhat accurate, especially on matters of public welfare, e.g. healthcare reform) Personally, I think always coloring things with one ideology doesn't work because each topic is different, hence my suggestion to seek different opinions outside of our own echo chambers.