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One of the most interesting things about China related discussions is the flood of people who will arrive and post points/arguments with various levels of false

One of the most interesting things about China related discussions is the flood of people who will arrive and post points/arguments with various levels of false equivalency with "western" law/practise/etc. _Not_ that you are doing that, maybe, but thats one of the challenges in these conversations, who is being genuine and who is not? China _is_ authoritarian, denying that is ridiculous. The CCP creates laws that individually or in part can benefit its populace, but are often or solely pro cadre or their personal interests. That democracies have corruption or vested interests (whether "positively" motivated or not) influencing laws does not make the process or the results equivalent.

dillondoyle 5y ago
I 100% believe that it's coordinated gov shills. I cannot fathom that our worldviews live in such insanely different realities. Maybe I'm the delusional one. but given the many many reports on CCPs active propaganda and controlling of media/online content (hell the whole point of this discussion) gives me plenty of evidence to support large-scale coordinated govt propaganda tools, if not here, definitely elsewhere.
- dillondoyle 5y ago
  Annnd -4, and -1 on another comment that I don't think even is controversial, and aligns with views that most on HN typically hold on speech.
erklik 5y ago
> who is being genuine and who is not Does it matter? Judge the idea, not the person behind it I say. If the argument is not worthy to stand, it will fall. > That democracies have corruption But it's not corruption. That's the issue. "When the preferences of economic elites and the stands of organized interest groups are controlled for, the preferences of the average American appear to have only a minuscule, near-zero, statistically non-significant impact upon public policy" [1] That's not corruption. If America was a true democracy, the country would look completely different. > The CCP creates laws that individually or in part can benefit its populace, but are often or solely pro cadre or their personal interests. It doesn't seem like that from the outside. Looking in, it seems like the CCP has successfully pulled an astronomical amount of people out of poverty and increasing QoL insanely, all while maintaining public legitimacy. Honestly, all it seems like, is that America drunk the cool aid too much and now believes so hard in it's own propaganda that it looks like brainwashing, while the reality is utterly different. 1. https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/03/america-is-not-a-democracy/550931/ https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/03/america...
- justinmcp 5y ago
  > Does it matter? Judge the idea, not the person behind it I say. If the argument is not worthy to stand, it will fall. Of course it matters, what a bizarre statement. >> That democracies have corruption > But it's not corruption. That's the issue. Either deliberately, though in-attention or personal need you, are mis-interpreting and or changing the subject. > It doesn't seem like that from the outside. Looking in, it seems like the CCP has successfully pulled an > astronomical amount of people out of poverty and increasing QoL insanely, all while maintaining public ? > legitimacy. There is no good way to assert that, but it's a pretty common refrain. > Honestly, all it seems like, is that America drunk the cool aid too much and now believes so hard in it's > own propaganda that it looks like brainwashing, while the reality is utterly different. I'm not American. All this cycles round to what I was saying. You could just be an interested observer, passionate about seemingly connected ideas. Or you could be deliberately derailing, trying to muddy the waters. There's no good way to tell, but ultimately it still paints China in a bad light - eventually no one will believe anything.
  - grecy 5y ago
    > Of course it matters, what a bizarre statement. Why? Please elaborate. As the person you replied to said, I feel that ideas should be judged on their merit, not on who came up with them. Plenty of "bad" people have good ideas and visa versa.
    - justinmcp 5y ago
      Sure.. but what I asked was who was being genuine, not whether exclusively ideas should be judged on their own merit, it was the other poster who pivoted what I said in that way. Similar to the way the poster below changed "making some rules that benefit themselves" to "its not possible to be successful if laws just benefit themselves" - which is not what I said. It's a pretty typical tactic - but whether it was done because they want to boost the CCP or wether they just aren't good or careless at understanding or expressing themselves? I don't know. Being genuine; the field of human interaction isn't some philosophical paper; if your cousin consistently lies, and has always lied; it's a good bet they will do so again - not evaluating each thing they say on its merits is a rational choice. If everyone in a group is prone to lying or misdirection - evaluating each idea will lead to exhaustion - trust matters.
beaunative 5y ago
"are often or solely pro cadre or their personal interests." Come on. That's just false. You can't operate a country successfully at China's size by making law just to benefit the cadre / personal interests. Don't get started by advocating that benefiting the people is just a way to benefit to cadre. It's infalsifiable and just pointless.

dillondoyle 5y ago

I 100% believe that it's coordinated gov shills. I cannot fathom that our worldviews live in such insanely different realities. Maybe I'm the delusional one. but given the many many reports on CCPs active propaganda and controlling of media/online content (hell the whole point of this discussion) gives me plenty of evidence to support large-scale coordinated govt propaganda tools, if not here, definitely elsewhere.

dillondoyle 5y ago
Annnd -4, and -1 on another comment that I don't think even is controversial, and aligns with views that most on HN typically hold on speech.

erklik 5y ago

> who is being genuine and who is not Does it matter? Judge the idea, not the person behind it I say. If the argument is not worthy to stand, it will fall. > That democracies have corruption But it's not corruption. That's the issue. "When the preferences of economic elites and the stands of organized interest groups are controlled for, the preferences of the average American appear to have only a minuscule, near-zero, statistically non-significant impact upon public policy" [1] That's not corruption. If America was a true democracy, the country would look completely different. > The CCP creates laws that individually or in part can benefit its populace, but are often or solely pro cadre or their personal interests. It doesn't seem like that from the outside. Looking in, it seems like the CCP has successfully pulled an astronomical amount of people out of poverty and increasing QoL insanely, all while maintaining public legitimacy. Honestly, all it seems like, is that America drunk the cool aid too much and now believes so hard in it's own propaganda that it looks like brainwashing, while the reality is utterly different. 1. https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/03/america-is-not-a-democracy/550931/ https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/03/america...

justinmcp 5y ago
> Does it matter? Judge the idea, not the person behind it I say. If the argument is not worthy to stand, it will fall. Of course it matters, what a bizarre statement. >> That democracies have corruption > But it's not corruption. That's the issue. Either deliberately, though in-attention or personal need you, are mis-interpreting and or changing the subject. > It doesn't seem like that from the outside. Looking in, it seems like the CCP has successfully pulled an > astronomical amount of people out of poverty and increasing QoL insanely, all while maintaining public ? > legitimacy. There is no good way to assert that, but it's a pretty common refrain. > Honestly, all it seems like, is that America drunk the cool aid too much and now believes so hard in it's > own propaganda that it looks like brainwashing, while the reality is utterly different. I'm not American. All this cycles round to what I was saying. You could just be an interested observer, passionate about seemingly connected ideas. Or you could be deliberately derailing, trying to muddy the waters. There's no good way to tell, but ultimately it still paints China in a bad light - eventually no one will believe anything.
- grecy 5y ago
  > Of course it matters, what a bizarre statement. Why? Please elaborate. As the person you replied to said, I feel that ideas should be judged on their merit, not on who came up with them. Plenty of "bad" people have good ideas and visa versa.
  - justinmcp 5y ago
    Sure.. but what I asked was who was being genuine, not whether exclusively ideas should be judged on their own merit, it was the other poster who pivoted what I said in that way. Similar to the way the poster below changed "making some rules that benefit themselves" to "its not possible to be successful if laws just benefit themselves" - which is not what I said. It's a pretty typical tactic - but whether it was done because they want to boost the CCP or wether they just aren't good or careless at understanding or expressing themselves? I don't know. Being genuine; the field of human interaction isn't some philosophical paper; if your cousin consistently lies, and has always lied; it's a good bet they will do so again - not evaluating each thing they say on its merits is a rational choice. If everyone in a group is prone to lying or misdirection - evaluating each idea will lead to exhaustion - trust matters.

beaunative 5y ago

"are often or solely pro cadre or their personal interests." Come on. That's just false. You can't operate a country successfully at China's size by making law just to benefit the cadre / personal interests. Don't get started by advocating that benefiting the people is just a way to benefit to cadre. It's infalsifiable and just pointless.