4 ms·

I have 0 knowledge of systemd-timers. Is it fully interoperable with cron and available on every system that has cron? If not, I think your comment is pretty i

I have 0 knowledge of systemd-timers. Is it fully interoperable with cron and available on every system that has cron? If not, I think your comment is pretty irrelevant since there are still scenarios where you'd need to use cron.

kd913 5y ago
It's on every system that has systemd which is basically on every commercial production Linux system. I can use them as a user and non-root, I get to use journalctl and systemd status to check if it ran. The timers run independently of others and the timers are in English. If you are using Devuan or something weird like that then sure, but nearly every other way I find systemd-timers better especially for debugability.
- macintux 5y ago
  There's a vast world outside commercial Linux systems. BSD, macOS, Solaris (I assume Solaris still exists), etc. And Debian isn't exactly "weird".
  - nick__m 5y ago
    Debian use systemd, Devuan is the reactionary fork of Debian without systemd.
    - macintux 5y ago
      Ah, thanks, I assumed that was autocorrect madness.
    - yjftsjthsd-h 5y ago
      I thought Debian supported system or sysv init; did they remove the latter more recently?
      - kafkaIncarnate 5y ago
        They had about a 5 year "democratic" scream fest that ended when they decided to switch to SystemD (over upstart and other options) starting in Debian Jessie (roughly when I switched off Debian because I couldn't stand the shout matches anymore, not because I had a pony in the race). https://www.debian.org/News/2015/20150426 https://www.debian.org/News/2015/20150426 So since April 25th, 2015. The logic went, we didn't like PulseAudio, therefore we don't like the developer (Lennart Poettering). Lennart Poettering also made SystemD, therefore we automatically hate that. The main complaint was that it relied on DBUS. Most of them switched to Gentoo because it supported OpenRC, ironically also reliant on DBUS. EDIT: I found some additional strange results when trying to find the spelling of his name: https://www.zdnet.com/article/lennart-poetterings-linus-torvalds-rant/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/lennart-poetterings-linus-torv... https://bannedhipster.home.blog/2020/10/28/meet-your-nsa-handler-lennart-poettering/ https://bannedhipster.home.blog/2020/10/28/meet-your-nsa-han... https://groups.google.com/g/comp.misc/c/wnFJ3-QDKdE https://groups.google.com/g/comp.misc/c/wnFJ3-QDKdE Looks like they believe SystemD is an attempt by the NSA to infiltrate and spy on Linux users.
        yjftsjthsd-h 5y ago
        That's all unrelated to my point; per your first link: > The sysvinit init system is still available in "Jessie". I was asking if this had since changed, since last I'd paid attention you could in fact run Debian without systemd.
        kafkaIncarnate 5y ago
        Okay bad link. Apparently the jessie support for sysvinit is mostly because the service files were still there. It seems they didn't have any intention of maintaining those services, and other software that requires the use of it would simply fail to work if you installed sysvinit because much of it required the usage of systemd and/or dbus. https://lwn.net/Articles/585319/ https://lwn.net/Articles/585319/ https://www.itwire.com/open-source/debian-revisits-systemd-vote,-relaxes-things-a-bit.html https://www.itwire.com/open-source/debian-revisits-systemd-v... So, I guess I assumed that since there was hysteria around systemd becoming the default and the non-systemd users needing to create a new fork (Devuan) to get SystemD out of their Debian installs, it might have been to be compatible with other software: https://www.devuan.org/os/announce/ https://www.devuan.org/os/announce/ "As many of you might know already, the Init GR Debian vote promoted by Ian Jackson wasn't useful to protect Debian's legacy and its users from the systemd avalanche. This situation prospects a lock in systemd dependencies which is de-facto threatening freedom of development and has serious consequences for Debian, its upstream and its downstream." Choice 2:B is also the "new" decision to expand and allow exploring alternatives to SystemD in 2019, which is a change I was unaware of as well: https://lwn.net/Articles/804254/ https://lwn.net/Articles/804254/ https://www.debian.org/vote/2019/vote_002#textb https://www.debian.org/vote/2019/vote_002#textb I'm sure this won't satisfy you, but I'm done. I've followed this for far too long as it is, and I don't need to rehash more dumb mailing list arguments.
  - yjftsjthsd-h 5y ago
    > I assume Solaris still exists Technically yes, but I expect that Illumos is more relevant
- generalizations 5y ago
  > basically on every commercial production Linux system That comment rubs me the wrong way. To mirror the sibling, there's a lot outside the Linux+SystemD world - even your firewall probably doesn't use systemd (or linux for that matter, if you're in a professional environment), and neither does Alpine, that runs docker containers. (And love it or hate it, docker is in a lot of commercial production stuff.) "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
  - ossusermivami 5y ago
    bu you don't plan to distribute crons to machine that you don't control? why would you care ?
    - generalizations 5y ago
      A) I was responding to the implication that Linux+Systemd is the combination used in 'basically every commercial production system', which discounted the entire world of a) BSD and b) not-systemd. That wasn't a cron-specific comment on my part. B) I do control my (professional environment) firewall. OpenBSD+PF is an amazing firewall combo, and the other common firewall, pfsense, uses FreeBSD. Neither use Linux; neither use systemd.

kd913 5y ago

It's on every system that has systemd which is basically on every commercial production Linux system. I can use them as a user and non-root, I get to use journalctl and systemd status to check if it ran. The timers run independently of others and the timers are in English. If you are using Devuan or something weird like that then sure, but nearly every other way I find systemd-timers better especially for debugability.

macintux 5y ago
There's a vast world outside commercial Linux systems. BSD, macOS, Solaris (I assume Solaris still exists), etc. And Debian isn't exactly "weird".
- nick__m 5y ago
  Debian use systemd, Devuan is the reactionary fork of Debian without systemd.
  - macintux 5y ago
    Ah, thanks, I assumed that was autocorrect madness.
  - yjftsjthsd-h 5y ago
    I thought Debian supported system or sysv init; did they remove the latter more recently?
    - kafkaIncarnate 5y ago
      They had about a 5 year "democratic" scream fest that ended when they decided to switch to SystemD (over upstart and other options) starting in Debian Jessie (roughly when I switched off Debian because I couldn't stand the shout matches anymore, not because I had a pony in the race). https://www.debian.org/News/2015/20150426 https://www.debian.org/News/2015/20150426 So since April 25th, 2015. The logic went, we didn't like PulseAudio, therefore we don't like the developer (Lennart Poettering). Lennart Poettering also made SystemD, therefore we automatically hate that. The main complaint was that it relied on DBUS. Most of them switched to Gentoo because it supported OpenRC, ironically also reliant on DBUS. EDIT: I found some additional strange results when trying to find the spelling of his name: https://www.zdnet.com/article/lennart-poetterings-linus-torvalds-rant/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/lennart-poetterings-linus-torv... https://bannedhipster.home.blog/2020/10/28/meet-your-nsa-handler-lennart-poettering/ https://bannedhipster.home.blog/2020/10/28/meet-your-nsa-han... https://groups.google.com/g/comp.misc/c/wnFJ3-QDKdE https://groups.google.com/g/comp.misc/c/wnFJ3-QDKdE Looks like they believe SystemD is an attempt by the NSA to infiltrate and spy on Linux users.
      - yjftsjthsd-h 5y ago
        That's all unrelated to my point; per your first link: > The sysvinit init system is still available in "Jessie". I was asking if this had since changed, since last I'd paid attention you could in fact run Debian without systemd.
        kafkaIncarnate 5y ago
        Okay bad link. Apparently the jessie support for sysvinit is mostly because the service files were still there. It seems they didn't have any intention of maintaining those services, and other software that requires the use of it would simply fail to work if you installed sysvinit because much of it required the usage of systemd and/or dbus. https://lwn.net/Articles/585319/ https://lwn.net/Articles/585319/ https://www.itwire.com/open-source/debian-revisits-systemd-vote,-relaxes-things-a-bit.html https://www.itwire.com/open-source/debian-revisits-systemd-v... So, I guess I assumed that since there was hysteria around systemd becoming the default and the non-systemd users needing to create a new fork (Devuan) to get SystemD out of their Debian installs, it might have been to be compatible with other software: https://www.devuan.org/os/announce/ https://www.devuan.org/os/announce/ "As many of you might know already, the Init GR Debian vote promoted by Ian Jackson wasn't useful to protect Debian's legacy and its users from the systemd avalanche. This situation prospects a lock in systemd dependencies which is de-facto threatening freedom of development and has serious consequences for Debian, its upstream and its downstream." Choice 2:B is also the "new" decision to expand and allow exploring alternatives to SystemD in 2019, which is a change I was unaware of as well: https://lwn.net/Articles/804254/ https://lwn.net/Articles/804254/ https://www.debian.org/vote/2019/vote_002#textb https://www.debian.org/vote/2019/vote_002#textb I'm sure this won't satisfy you, but I'm done. I've followed this for far too long as it is, and I don't need to rehash more dumb mailing list arguments.
- yjftsjthsd-h 5y ago
  > I assume Solaris still exists Technically yes, but I expect that Illumos is more relevant
generalizations 5y ago
> basically on every commercial production Linux system That comment rubs me the wrong way. To mirror the sibling, there's a lot outside the Linux+SystemD world - even your firewall probably doesn't use systemd (or linux for that matter, if you're in a professional environment), and neither does Alpine, that runs docker containers. (And love it or hate it, docker is in a lot of commercial production stuff.) "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
- ossusermivami 5y ago
  bu you don't plan to distribute crons to machine that you don't control? why would you care ?
  - generalizations 5y ago
    A) I was responding to the implication that Linux+Systemd is the combination used in 'basically every commercial production system', which discounted the entire world of a) BSD and b) not-systemd. That wasn't a cron-specific comment on my part. B) I do control my (professional environment) firewall. OpenBSD+PF is an amazing firewall combo, and the other common firewall, pfsense, uses FreeBSD. Neither use Linux; neither use systemd.