5 ms·

If it were imposed by a democratically elected government, would it still be a problem?

by treebot 5y ago

chickenpotpie 5y ago
Yes but a smaller one
- dimgl 5y ago
  The correct answer is no, it'd still be a massive problem
  - chickenpotpie 5y ago
    Please reread what the question was and what I said. You have the question backwards.
Ajedi32 5y ago
Yes, in my opinion. If a law like this were passed in the United States I'd be vocally campaigning to get the law repealed and the people who voted for it replaced in the next election. Sadly, the Chinese people don't have that option, which only makes the situation that much worse.
- maccolgan 5y ago
  I'm placing my bet on the fact that vast majority of Chinese people probably support this, and that's fair.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - bradleybuda 5y ago
    If only there were some political system by which we could find out if this were true.
    - trefoiled 5y ago
      73% of Chinese people consider their government to be democratic. Only 49% of Americans said the same of their government. The Chinese Communist Party is seen as a meritocracy within China, which draws on an ancient tradition of bureaucracy. It's hard for Americans to understand. [1]: https://twitter.com/bopinion/status/1281853054078386181?lang=en https://twitter.com/bopinion/status/1281853054078386181?lang...
      - roughly 5y ago
        I don’t mean this to disagree, it’s a genuine question: to what degree can one really conduct a public poll about the relative merit of the Chinese government within China? In the US, there’s no credible argument (or at least no widespread belief) that saying bad things about the government to a pollster will get you incarcerated; as an outsider, I don’t know that the same is true in China.
        tshaddox 5y ago
        It sounds like any bad reports you hear come out of China is evidence that China is bad, and any good reports you hear come out of China is evidence that China is lying or has brainwashed its population. That's a pretty flawed epistemology in my opinion.
        roughly 5y ago
        I don’t believe that’s what I said or what I asked.
        _carbyau_ 5y ago
        Trying to figure out truth or fiction from China is complicated by the CCP's direct censorship/influence. Good news comes almost direct from CCP. Bad news is from anywhere-but-CCP. Neither good/bad news can be judged as 100% true or false but the "CCP influence" means I have to use a fudge factor that decreases the trustworthiness of good news in comparison to bad news. It doesn't outright invalidate "good news" but it introduces a significant element of doubt.
- grecy 5y ago
  Do you vocally campaign to repeal the law that bans under 18s from consuming alcohol and cigarettes? Do you vocally campaign to repeal the law that prevents you buying and using asbestos in their buildings? Do you vocally campaign to repeal the law that prevents you from buying and owning an anti-aircraft missile system? Our democracies have plenty of laws about things we're not allowed to do. Some of them are for our own good, some are for the overall good of society.
  - whatevertrevor 5y ago
    And there's no definitive evidence that playing any video game for more than 3 hours a week is in conflict with our good or the good of the society. Not all regulations are born equal and some of them are definitely not worth fighting against.
    - grecy 5y ago
      > And there's no definitive evidence that playing any video game for more than 3 hours a week is in conflict with our good or the good of the society I agree, though definitive evidence is clearly *not* the threshold for when laws to protect us are or are not created. For example, there is a mountain of evidence that smoking is exceptionally bad for adults, but there's no law against it. I could smoke 20 packets a day from now on. I could even drink 10 bottles of vodka a day perfectly legally.
  - justinmcp 5y ago
    One of the most interesting things about China related discussions is the flood of people who will arrive and post points/arguments with various levels of false equivalency with "western" law/practise/etc. _Not_ that you are doing that, maybe, but thats one of the challenges in these conversations, who is being genuine and who is not? China _is_ authoritarian, denying that is ridiculous. The CCP creates laws that individually or in part can benefit its populace, but are often or solely pro cadre or their personal interests. That democracies have corruption or vested interests (whether "positively" motivated or not) influencing laws does not make the process or the results equivalent.
Tade0 5y ago
Would any government risk to antagonize its future voters like this? I imagine teenagers hit by such regulations would remember who made these decisions and vote appropriately.
2OEH8eoCRo0 5y ago
How would that even happen? A Democratic society that votes for that and whose courts uphold that would be a very different kind of Democracy. I can't even conceive of it. That feels like a loaded question because something like that simply would never pass in a Democracy.

If it were imposed by a democratically elected government, would it still be a problem?

chickenpotpie 5y ago

Yes but a smaller one

dimgl 5y ago
The correct answer is no, it'd still be a massive problem
- chickenpotpie 5y ago
  Please reread what the question was and what I said. You have the question backwards.

Ajedi32 5y ago

Yes, in my opinion. If a law like this were passed in the United States I'd be vocally campaigning to get the law repealed and the people who voted for it replaced in the next election. Sadly, the Chinese people don't have that option, which only makes the situation that much worse.

maccolgan 5y ago
I'm placing my bet on the fact that vast majority of Chinese people probably support this, and that's fair.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- bradleybuda 5y ago
  If only there were some political system by which we could find out if this were true.
  - trefoiled 5y ago
    73% of Chinese people consider their government to be democratic. Only 49% of Americans said the same of their government. The Chinese Communist Party is seen as a meritocracy within China, which draws on an ancient tradition of bureaucracy. It's hard for Americans to understand. [1]: https://twitter.com/bopinion/status/1281853054078386181?lang=en https://twitter.com/bopinion/status/1281853054078386181?lang...
    - roughly 5y ago
      I don’t mean this to disagree, it’s a genuine question: to what degree can one really conduct a public poll about the relative merit of the Chinese government within China? In the US, there’s no credible argument (or at least no widespread belief) that saying bad things about the government to a pollster will get you incarcerated; as an outsider, I don’t know that the same is true in China.
      - tshaddox 5y ago
        It sounds like any bad reports you hear come out of China is evidence that China is bad, and any good reports you hear come out of China is evidence that China is lying or has brainwashed its population. That's a pretty flawed epistemology in my opinion.
        roughly 5y ago
        I don’t believe that’s what I said or what I asked.
        _carbyau_ 5y ago
        Trying to figure out truth or fiction from China is complicated by the CCP's direct censorship/influence. Good news comes almost direct from CCP. Bad news is from anywhere-but-CCP. Neither good/bad news can be judged as 100% true or false but the "CCP influence" means I have to use a fudge factor that decreases the trustworthiness of good news in comparison to bad news. It doesn't outright invalidate "good news" but it introduces a significant element of doubt.
grecy 5y ago
Do you vocally campaign to repeal the law that bans under 18s from consuming alcohol and cigarettes? Do you vocally campaign to repeal the law that prevents you buying and using asbestos in their buildings? Do you vocally campaign to repeal the law that prevents you from buying and owning an anti-aircraft missile system? Our democracies have plenty of laws about things we're not allowed to do. Some of them are for our own good, some are for the overall good of society.
- whatevertrevor 5y ago
  And there's no definitive evidence that playing any video game for more than 3 hours a week is in conflict with our good or the good of the society. Not all regulations are born equal and some of them are definitely not worth fighting against.
  - grecy 5y ago
    > And there's no definitive evidence that playing any video game for more than 3 hours a week is in conflict with our good or the good of the society I agree, though definitive evidence is clearly *not* the threshold for when laws to protect us are or are not created. For example, there is a mountain of evidence that smoking is exceptionally bad for adults, but there's no law against it. I could smoke 20 packets a day from now on. I could even drink 10 bottles of vodka a day perfectly legally.
- justinmcp 5y ago
  One of the most interesting things about China related discussions is the flood of people who will arrive and post points/arguments with various levels of false equivalency with "western" law/practise/etc. _Not_ that you are doing that, maybe, but thats one of the challenges in these conversations, who is being genuine and who is not? China _is_ authoritarian, denying that is ridiculous. The CCP creates laws that individually or in part can benefit its populace, but are often or solely pro cadre or their personal interests. That democracies have corruption or vested interests (whether "positively" motivated or not) influencing laws does not make the process or the results equivalent.

Tade0 5y ago

Would any government risk to antagonize its future voters like this? I imagine teenagers hit by such regulations would remember who made these decisions and vote appropriately.

2OEH8eoCRo0 5y ago

How would that even happen? A Democratic society that votes for that and whose courts uphold that would be a very different kind of Democracy. I can't even conceive of it. That feels like a loaded question because something like that simply would never pass in a Democracy.