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That's a reason why many language learning apps or methods recommend a period of "immersion" (i.e., just watching shows or listening to music) and no speaking.

That's a reason why many language learning apps or methods recommend a period of "immersion" (i.e., just watching shows or listening to music) and no speaking. Just listen and get used to the sounds before trying to produce it awkwardly yourself. This is popular in the https://refold.la https://refold.la language learning community where they don't even recommend to speak until you can fully understand an entire TV show without subtitles (which sounds a bit extreme to me). https://languagelearningwithnetflix.com https://languagelearningwithnetflix.com is commonly used. I'm going to shamelessly plug my project in case it might be useful for anyone here. A webapp to learn a language if you're in a relationship and learning it because you have a partner or spouse that speaks that language. It's still early, but I've been learning a third language as an adult for a while, and it helps to make use of a native speaker who is around you all the time. They can help train the ear as well. https://learncoupling.com https://learncoupling.com

diskzero 5y ago
Your app looks interesting. I'll check it out! I learned conversational French, German, Russian and Spanish as an adult. The method that worked best for me is similar to what you mentioned. I watched as many shows as I could in the various languages. I listened to native language programming and attempted to read as much material in the languages as possible. While I was doing this, I was also working through Rosetta Stone, which worked well for me. I also went to language MeetUps and just absorbed the sounds and patterns of conversation. When I did decide to join the conversation, I took on a philosophy of fearlessness and just went for it. Sure, many mistakes were made, but I had zero negative feedback from my attempts. When I later travelled, I adopted this same attitude. I knew I was going to make mistakes, but I generated a lot of goodwill for my attempts. Sometimes I got corrections, sometimes I had to repeat myself, sometimes I would get an answer back in English, whatever! No one ever shamed me and my skills continued to improve.
- ch4s3 5y ago
  > Sometimes I got corrections, sometimes I had to repeat myself, sometimes I would get an answer back in English, whatever! No one ever shamed me and my skills continued to improve. Whenever I'm traveling abroad I always make an attempt to learn a few hundred words, some phrases, and how to sting together simple sentences. With very few exceptions, the attempt is usually greeted with amusement and a polite response. People were down right thrilled in Hungary, and the Portuguese are in my experience quite happy to suffer through you attempt.
  - ngokevin 5y ago
    Interestingly in Hong Kong, they will go to hell and back to divert the conversation to English if they see you aren't a native speaker. You literally have to say "I can't speak English" if you want to keep it in Cantonese.
    - diskzero 5y ago
      Yeah, sometimes that will happen in countries where people have strong English language skills. I'll respect their wish to speak in the language they want to communicate in.
      - ch4s3 5y ago
        Yeah Holland is like that.
      - JCharante 5y ago
        It also happens in places where people want to practice their English. In Vietnam I once told my taxi driver that I can't speak English, but then ended up having to have a conversation with him in Vietnamese. (I told him I didn't speak English because I wasn't feeling up for a conversation, but then tricked myself into one)
    - c_o_n_v_e_x 5y ago
      Same experience in Singapore when practicing speaking Malaysian... steer back to English, although I get the occasional person who's genuinely amused with my attempts.
- ngokevin 5y ago
  Yeah, the method is very appealing because speaking requires interaction with other people. People are very content to learn passively via watching movies because speaking does require that fearlessness.
dark_glass 5y ago
Your project looks amazing. I am in the same situation where I am learning Cantonese because my partner and her family speak it (actually Taishanese, but Cantonese is close enough). Love the Yale romanization for your included Cantonese flash cards! Definitely going to check this out. As for listening before speaking: It has been incredibly hard for me to pick out specific vocabulary with colloquial Cantonese in movies and other videos. Native speakers talk too quickly for me right now. I did watch a lot of French movies when learning French and that seemed to help more with comprehension later. I likely just need to spend more time with Cantonese since it is more different to my native tongue than French.
- ngokevin 5y ago
  Yeah, very hard to learn Cantonese since it's tonal, but you can do it! For movies, I find it a lot easier to reinforce once I've gotten used to the language a bit. Lot of good Stephen Chow and Jackie Chan films to learn with. There are podcast packs in the app to get you introduced to Cantonese. I'll keep in touch to see how it goes!
dQw4w9WgXcQ 5y ago
Awhile back on here someone made a good point that if you learn a language via an opposite sex partner, you generally end up learning a manner of speaking that is typified by that sex. So relational training does work to a point, but if you want to be a man who speaks immersively and culturally like a man (and so forth) it's worth remembering that digesting telenovelas and practicing with your Colombian girlfriend will train you in a certain direction.
- mc32 5y ago
  This is true, from my experience. Natives of the language will clue you in too that you’re doing it.
- ngokevin 5y ago
  That's a good point. It's not necessarily learning directly 100% from a partner, but more using them for feedback, reinforcement, and motivation. I'm curious what the context of that conversation was!
- _jal 5y ago
  I learned German as a 16-17 year-old exchange student, and haven't had cause to use it super regularly since then, aside from talking to people there. They tell me I still sound a bit like an extremely out-of-date teenager.
  - willyt 5y ago
    I have friends from Europe who studied architecture in the UK and they say that after the 7 years of studying and working it takes to become an architect they would struggle a bit to have an intellectual conversation about architecture at the same level in thier native language; they didn’t have the vocabulary or an understanding of the zeitgeist in thier own country. They still spoke thier own language mostly like they had when they had just left school.
    - mmarq 5y ago
      I struggle speaking about programming, IT, mathematics and economics in my native language, because I studied and worked in the UK. I always end up using English technical words and expressions.
ttesttom 5y ago
I would kindly disagree and say that it's better to learn the pronunciation rules and practice producing them. There is a lot of research around learning that production and testing are better for learning (and also why is easier to understand than speak). Specifically, to train pronunciation, the anki decks from the author of the book Fluent Forever are incredible. Source: Learned a romance language for my SO and everyone I've met in the native country tells me I have a very natural accent and clean pronunciation. https://fluent-forever.com/product/fluent-forever-pronunciation-trainer/ https://fluent-forever.com/product/fluent-forever-pronunciat...
- ngokevin 5y ago
  Yeah, I wouldn't go as extreme as refold's 100% comprehension before even speaking. Just noting what's become popular recently. Personally, a two-week period or so just absorbing and practicing pronunciation by yourself sounds good before trying with other people. Congrats on successfully learning your SO's language!
  - ttesttom 5y ago
    Thanks! Yeah, I definitely think immersion listening can really help and I've used it a bit (subs2srs and audio books), but sometimes it can be used as a crutch to avoid speaking. Your app looks really cool and love that you incorporated SRS. Anecdotally, the hardest thing I've seen with my SO and I is that we end up switching back to english as we aren't disciplined when practicing together (even when in the other country itself lol)
nextaccountic 5y ago
Hey, thanks for the refold link, it was helpful.
fsckboy 5y ago
> learning a third language as an adult for a while, and it helps to make use of a native speaker who is around you all the time in Japan, men and women speak slightly differently, apparently, the women speaking in a higher register for example. There was a funny article I saw in a major publication about an American in Japan who learned Japanese primarily through his Japanese girlfriend, but she broke up with him because he ended up talking "like a girl"
- ngokevin 5y ago
  That's funny. I hope to avoid that myself! People should use partners as one of many resources (especially for motivation and feedback), but should not be the sole resource to mimic.
atom-morgan 5y ago
Thank you for sharing this. My girlfriend is fluent in Korean, I was when I lived there for a year while in 2nd grade, and I've been trying to learn Korean again. I'll definitely be checking out your app!
- ngokevin 5y ago
  Please do! It has some growing pains. While it supports 100+ languages, Korean is one of few that has first-class support (just based on cross-cultural relationship statistics). I may reach out to you over email if you sign up.
JCharante 5y ago
Oh I was wondering where refold.la came from, since I've never seen it before (which would be unusual for me) Turns out it's the result of the partnership breakup between Matt and Yoga who used to run Mass Immersion Approach. I was reading the (incomplete guide) and realized it looked familiar.

diskzero 5y ago

Your app looks interesting. I'll check it out! I learned conversational French, German, Russian and Spanish as an adult. The method that worked best for me is similar to what you mentioned. I watched as many shows as I could in the various languages. I listened to native language programming and attempted to read as much material in the languages as possible. While I was doing this, I was also working through Rosetta Stone, which worked well for me. I also went to language MeetUps and just absorbed the sounds and patterns of conversation. When I did decide to join the conversation, I took on a philosophy of fearlessness and just went for it. Sure, many mistakes were made, but I had zero negative feedback from my attempts. When I later travelled, I adopted this same attitude. I knew I was going to make mistakes, but I generated a lot of goodwill for my attempts. Sometimes I got corrections, sometimes I had to repeat myself, sometimes I would get an answer back in English, whatever! No one ever shamed me and my skills continued to improve.

ch4s3 5y ago
> Sometimes I got corrections, sometimes I had to repeat myself, sometimes I would get an answer back in English, whatever! No one ever shamed me and my skills continued to improve. Whenever I'm traveling abroad I always make an attempt to learn a few hundred words, some phrases, and how to sting together simple sentences. With very few exceptions, the attempt is usually greeted with amusement and a polite response. People were down right thrilled in Hungary, and the Portuguese are in my experience quite happy to suffer through you attempt.
- ngokevin 5y ago
  Interestingly in Hong Kong, they will go to hell and back to divert the conversation to English if they see you aren't a native speaker. You literally have to say "I can't speak English" if you want to keep it in Cantonese.
  - diskzero 5y ago
    Yeah, sometimes that will happen in countries where people have strong English language skills. I'll respect their wish to speak in the language they want to communicate in.
    - ch4s3 5y ago
      Yeah Holland is like that.
    - JCharante 5y ago
      It also happens in places where people want to practice their English. In Vietnam I once told my taxi driver that I can't speak English, but then ended up having to have a conversation with him in Vietnamese. (I told him I didn't speak English because I wasn't feeling up for a conversation, but then tricked myself into one)
  - c_o_n_v_e_x 5y ago
    Same experience in Singapore when practicing speaking Malaysian... steer back to English, although I get the occasional person who's genuinely amused with my attempts.
ngokevin 5y ago
Yeah, the method is very appealing because speaking requires interaction with other people. People are very content to learn passively via watching movies because speaking does require that fearlessness.

dark_glass 5y ago

Your project looks amazing. I am in the same situation where I am learning Cantonese because my partner and her family speak it (actually Taishanese, but Cantonese is close enough). Love the Yale romanization for your included Cantonese flash cards! Definitely going to check this out. As for listening before speaking: It has been incredibly hard for me to pick out specific vocabulary with colloquial Cantonese in movies and other videos. Native speakers talk too quickly for me right now. I did watch a lot of French movies when learning French and that seemed to help more with comprehension later. I likely just need to spend more time with Cantonese since it is more different to my native tongue than French.

ngokevin 5y ago
Yeah, very hard to learn Cantonese since it's tonal, but you can do it! For movies, I find it a lot easier to reinforce once I've gotten used to the language a bit. Lot of good Stephen Chow and Jackie Chan films to learn with. There are podcast packs in the app to get you introduced to Cantonese. I'll keep in touch to see how it goes!

dQw4w9WgXcQ 5y ago

Awhile back on here someone made a good point that if you learn a language via an opposite sex partner, you generally end up learning a manner of speaking that is typified by that sex. So relational training does work to a point, but if you want to be a man who speaks immersively and culturally like a man (and so forth) it's worth remembering that digesting telenovelas and practicing with your Colombian girlfriend will train you in a certain direction.

mc32 5y ago
This is true, from my experience. Natives of the language will clue you in too that you’re doing it.
ngokevin 5y ago
That's a good point. It's not necessarily learning directly 100% from a partner, but more using them for feedback, reinforcement, and motivation. I'm curious what the context of that conversation was!
_jal 5y ago
I learned German as a 16-17 year-old exchange student, and haven't had cause to use it super regularly since then, aside from talking to people there. They tell me I still sound a bit like an extremely out-of-date teenager.
- willyt 5y ago
  I have friends from Europe who studied architecture in the UK and they say that after the 7 years of studying and working it takes to become an architect they would struggle a bit to have an intellectual conversation about architecture at the same level in thier native language; they didn’t have the vocabulary or an understanding of the zeitgeist in thier own country. They still spoke thier own language mostly like they had when they had just left school.
  - mmarq 5y ago
    I struggle speaking about programming, IT, mathematics and economics in my native language, because I studied and worked in the UK. I always end up using English technical words and expressions.

ttesttom 5y ago

I would kindly disagree and say that it's better to learn the pronunciation rules and practice producing them. There is a lot of research around learning that production and testing are better for learning (and also why is easier to understand than speak). Specifically, to train pronunciation, the anki decks from the author of the book Fluent Forever are incredible. Source: Learned a romance language for my SO and everyone I've met in the native country tells me I have a very natural accent and clean pronunciation. https://fluent-forever.com/product/fluent-forever-pronunciation-trainer/ https://fluent-forever.com/product/fluent-forever-pronunciat...

ngokevin 5y ago
Yeah, I wouldn't go as extreme as refold's 100% comprehension before even speaking. Just noting what's become popular recently. Personally, a two-week period or so just absorbing and practicing pronunciation by yourself sounds good before trying with other people. Congrats on successfully learning your SO's language!
- ttesttom 5y ago
  Thanks! Yeah, I definitely think immersion listening can really help and I've used it a bit (subs2srs and audio books), but sometimes it can be used as a crutch to avoid speaking. Your app looks really cool and love that you incorporated SRS. Anecdotally, the hardest thing I've seen with my SO and I is that we end up switching back to english as we aren't disciplined when practicing together (even when in the other country itself lol)

nextaccountic 5y ago

Hey, thanks for the refold link, it was helpful.

fsckboy 5y ago

> learning a third language as an adult for a while, and it helps to make use of a native speaker who is around you all the time in Japan, men and women speak slightly differently, apparently, the women speaking in a higher register for example. There was a funny article I saw in a major publication about an American in Japan who learned Japanese primarily through his Japanese girlfriend, but she broke up with him because he ended up talking "like a girl"

ngokevin 5y ago
That's funny. I hope to avoid that myself! People should use partners as one of many resources (especially for motivation and feedback), but should not be the sole resource to mimic.

atom-morgan 5y ago

Thank you for sharing this. My girlfriend is fluent in Korean, I was when I lived there for a year while in 2nd grade, and I've been trying to learn Korean again. I'll definitely be checking out your app!

ngokevin 5y ago
Please do! It has some growing pains. While it supports 100+ languages, Korean is one of few that has first-class support (just based on cross-cultural relationship statistics). I may reach out to you over email if you sign up.

JCharante 5y ago

Oh I was wondering where refold.la came from, since I've never seen it before (which would be unusual for me) Turns out it's the result of the partnership breakup between Matt and Yoga who used to run Mass Immersion Approach. I was reading the (incomplete guide) and realized it looked familiar.