5 ms·

"bandwidth negotiation" - HF paths are often unidirectional in the sense that you can interfere with station A without station B being able to hear. You can ea

by VLM 5y ago

"bandwidth negotiation" - HF paths are often unidirectional in the sense that you can interfere with station A without station B being able to hear. You can easily interfere with people you can't hear and autonegotiation mean you're autojamming without being aware of it. Not an issue with "human in the loop" modes. No application layer need for it anyway. "spread spectrum" - See above, plus raising the noise floor means the death of entire weak signal modes. "encryption" - Absolutely no need. Would be death of ham radio. Why bother with cheap ham radio licenses if you can just transmit anything you want but encrypted. "the bands are mostly empty" Buy a better antenna LOL.

edrxty 5y ago
Found one Bandwidth negotiation - you can already interfere in the same way without it. This is also true of any radio communication, ELF or EHF Spread spectrum - yes but has the ability to not significantly interfere with any single other link, can obviously otherwise be kept out of the tiny segment for weak digital or otherwise confined to sub bands Encryption - this one's my favorite: the hardware is already common, if this argument were true then ham would already be dead. If someone is being abusive they don't give their call anyway and we hunt them with DF the way we always have. Bands - have you seen 17m to light? Tldr we have coexisted by being neighborly for over 100 years. New technologies won't add or remove the underlying need for being neighborly. We can therefore play with the new toys if we continue to uphold those principles as we always have.
- VLM 5y ago
  Bandwidth negotiation - Uh, no. Human in the loop with ears can hear a complaint of interference and stop or adjust. Autonegotiation just turns up the power until the victim can't use the service anymore. RF is not a phone line. Note that we have legal things like RSID mode detection, which is not autonegotiation. Autonegotiation is a great technology for military anti-jamming purposes, not ham radio. Spread spectrum - The coding gain from SS varies with the bandwidth spread across, so SS over a narrow enough channel... isn't even SS anymore. That said we seem to agree that VHF and up there's plenty of space to channelize and regulate by frequency. What does anyone gain from it other than it interferes with anything else in its channel? Encryption - You haven't explained why its needed. "I can't talk to you, you can't talk to me" isn't very neighborly or ham radio friendly. So its not needed and only provides downsides. Emcom is difficult enough without everyone not sharing secret keys. What part 97.1 "basis and purpose" section does secretive private transmissions benefit? I mean, if it was useful for some ham radio purpose, sure sounds cool go for it. Encryption is certainly very useful for non-ham-radio purposes, but then by definition it shouldn't be on the ham bands anyway. I admit there are weird exceptions where encryption might be useful, which are already written into regulation, like 97.211 "Space telecommand station" part (b) permits space satellite control uplinks to be encrypted, but only the control signals, which makes sense, so some rando doesn't take over a satellite... "New technologies won't add or remove the underlying need for being neighborly." Agreed. As of 2021 nobody has invented a technology for wideband digital to coexist with, well, anything, other than regulating under a channelized system, which seems impossible for international HF. Your three main arguments seem to boil down to "why can't I jam other people?" whereas my point of view is "why would anyone want to jam other people" so we're probably never going to get along.
  - a-dub 5y ago
    as someone who is not familiar with this world (but takes deep interest in (n)etiquette), would someone be willing to do a quick breakdown of ham netiquette, "being neighborly", fears of encryption and how abuse is managed in the ham world? i ask because maybe there are some learnings and lessons there that could apply to internet policy today. it sounds like certain things, like anonymity, are banned? there's some sort of community policing? i'm super curious.
    - jtdressel 5y ago
      I don't have a lot of time, but this was an interesting question. If you message me I'll dig up references. There are nuances and exceptions to almost everything I list below. The radio spectrum is a scarce resource. Two of the main reasons amateur radio users are given access to the spectrum is to help with disaster recovery and to advance the art and science of radio. Callsigns are public - you can look up anyone's to see who they are. You're required to give your callsign at the end of your transmission, and every 10 minutes. There are some limitations on content. No music, no profanity, no commercial uses, and no encryption. netiquette varies based on what you are doing. In general, shorter range bands have better sound quality and are more casual. Longer range has worse sound quality (or no sound like morse or ft8). If you're on one of the shorter range bands (e.g. 70cm) you'll often find people who are keeping in touch with friends, or just looking for someone to talk to. On the longer range, you'll run into stuff like contests - all the other person wants to know is who you are, and where you are. They're trying to see either how many contacts they can make in a period of time or how far away they're able to make contacts. There are "formal traffic" nets - which pass messages. Local nets will route traffic they can't deliver to regional nets, and then back down to local nets. Usually they just pass practice traffic around - until a disaster occurs and they are needed. More info https://www.arrl.org/nts-manual https://www.arrl.org/nts-manual The lowest level license is the Technician. You can find the Technician exam pool online in several formats. https://www.arrl.org/files/file/VEs/2018-2022%20Tech%20Class%20Pool%20Final%20with%20errata.pdf https://www.arrl.org/files/file/VEs/2018-2022%20Tech%20Class... Edit: I forgot about you abuse question. Hams tend to police their own or will work with the FCC to report people misusing the airwaves. The practice version of this is called "fox hunting" - where someone places a transmitter and you try to find it. Most hams care about keeping the hobby alive. If they find someone who's broadcasting with too much power or without a license usually they'll try to work with that person to correct the behavior. If that doesn't work, they'll often work with the FCC.
- op00to 5y ago
  I tuned into 12m randomly for about 10 minutes around lunch time today and picked up a /mm calling CQ which was fun.

by VLM 5y ago

edrxty 5y ago

Found one Bandwidth negotiation - you can already interfere in the same way without it. This is also true of any radio communication, ELF or EHF Spread spectrum - yes but has the ability to not significantly interfere with any single other link, can obviously otherwise be kept out of the tiny segment for weak digital or otherwise confined to sub bands Encryption - this one's my favorite: the hardware is already common, if this argument were true then ham would already be dead. If someone is being abusive they don't give their call anyway and we hunt them with DF the way we always have. Bands - have you seen 17m to light? Tldr we have coexisted by being neighborly for over 100 years. New technologies won't add or remove the underlying need for being neighborly. We can therefore play with the new toys if we continue to uphold those principles as we always have.

VLM 5y ago
Bandwidth negotiation - Uh, no. Human in the loop with ears can hear a complaint of interference and stop or adjust. Autonegotiation just turns up the power until the victim can't use the service anymore. RF is not a phone line. Note that we have legal things like RSID mode detection, which is not autonegotiation. Autonegotiation is a great technology for military anti-jamming purposes, not ham radio. Spread spectrum - The coding gain from SS varies with the bandwidth spread across, so SS over a narrow enough channel... isn't even SS anymore. That said we seem to agree that VHF and up there's plenty of space to channelize and regulate by frequency. What does anyone gain from it other than it interferes with anything else in its channel? Encryption - You haven't explained why its needed. "I can't talk to you, you can't talk to me" isn't very neighborly or ham radio friendly. So its not needed and only provides downsides. Emcom is difficult enough without everyone not sharing secret keys. What part 97.1 "basis and purpose" section does secretive private transmissions benefit? I mean, if it was useful for some ham radio purpose, sure sounds cool go for it. Encryption is certainly very useful for non-ham-radio purposes, but then by definition it shouldn't be on the ham bands anyway. I admit there are weird exceptions where encryption might be useful, which are already written into regulation, like 97.211 "Space telecommand station" part (b) permits space satellite control uplinks to be encrypted, but only the control signals, which makes sense, so some rando doesn't take over a satellite... "New technologies won't add or remove the underlying need for being neighborly." Agreed. As of 2021 nobody has invented a technology for wideband digital to coexist with, well, anything, other than regulating under a channelized system, which seems impossible for international HF. Your three main arguments seem to boil down to "why can't I jam other people?" whereas my point of view is "why would anyone want to jam other people" so we're probably never going to get along.
- a-dub 5y ago
  as someone who is not familiar with this world (but takes deep interest in (n)etiquette), would someone be willing to do a quick breakdown of ham netiquette, "being neighborly", fears of encryption and how abuse is managed in the ham world? i ask because maybe there are some learnings and lessons there that could apply to internet policy today. it sounds like certain things, like anonymity, are banned? there's some sort of community policing? i'm super curious.
  - jtdressel 5y ago
    I don't have a lot of time, but this was an interesting question. If you message me I'll dig up references. There are nuances and exceptions to almost everything I list below. The radio spectrum is a scarce resource. Two of the main reasons amateur radio users are given access to the spectrum is to help with disaster recovery and to advance the art and science of radio. Callsigns are public - you can look up anyone's to see who they are. You're required to give your callsign at the end of your transmission, and every 10 minutes. There are some limitations on content. No music, no profanity, no commercial uses, and no encryption. netiquette varies based on what you are doing. In general, shorter range bands have better sound quality and are more casual. Longer range has worse sound quality (or no sound like morse or ft8). If you're on one of the shorter range bands (e.g. 70cm) you'll often find people who are keeping in touch with friends, or just looking for someone to talk to. On the longer range, you'll run into stuff like contests - all the other person wants to know is who you are, and where you are. They're trying to see either how many contacts they can make in a period of time or how far away they're able to make contacts. There are "formal traffic" nets - which pass messages. Local nets will route traffic they can't deliver to regional nets, and then back down to local nets. Usually they just pass practice traffic around - until a disaster occurs and they are needed. More info https://www.arrl.org/nts-manual https://www.arrl.org/nts-manual The lowest level license is the Technician. You can find the Technician exam pool online in several formats. https://www.arrl.org/files/file/VEs/2018-2022%20Tech%20Class%20Pool%20Final%20with%20errata.pdf https://www.arrl.org/files/file/VEs/2018-2022%20Tech%20Class... Edit: I forgot about you abuse question. Hams tend to police their own or will work with the FCC to report people misusing the airwaves. The practice version of this is called "fox hunting" - where someone places a transmitter and you try to find it. Most hams care about keeping the hobby alive. If they find someone who's broadcasting with too much power or without a license usually they'll try to work with that person to correct the behavior. If that doesn't work, they'll often work with the FCC.
op00to 5y ago
I tuned into 12m randomly for about 10 minutes around lunch time today and picked up a /mm calling CQ which was fun.