6 ms·

There was a line in there that reminded me a bit of a thing you might write in a school essay - "When playing Spades, you’re dealt a hand and have no control ov

There was a line in there that reminded me a bit of a thing you might write in a school essay - "When playing Spades, you’re dealt a hand and have no control over the cards you get—unless you’re cheating." I'm having trouble thinking of a card game where you do get control over the cards you're dealt. Maybe there is one? I'm reminded of a time in high school where for some reason I had to write an essay connecting Mary Shelley's Frankenstein to some more modern environmentalism ideas. These "You don't control the hand you're dealt" are exactly the kind of thing that filled those essays in school. "The monster, representing the unchecked progress of technology, causes great harm to the world..." You can just draw random connections between any two ideas if you don't limit yourself to strong, unique, or meaningful connections.

spullara 5y ago
In games like Magic: The Gathering you do get to decide what possible cards you can be dealt.
- dagw 5y ago
  And richer players have access better to cards that poorer payers can never hope to be dealt.
  - qsort 5y ago
    You do have a point, but this trope is overstated in a way that doesn't reflect reality IMO. At a competitive level the playing field is completely level. You have to assume players have access to all the cards, otherwise games like it make zero sense. Sure, it's an expensive game, but so are many other games and sports. It's an accessibility issue, not a balance issue: it's not like you can buy your way to victory. Plus, you can always play sealed and draft, if you really hate constructed formats!
    - taneq 5y ago
      > It's an accessibility issue, not a balance issue: it's not like you can buy your way to victory. It's only 'not a balance issue' because you consider access to all of the cards to be table stakes.
      - lmm 5y ago
        Right, but... it is table stakes. No-one is playing Magic seriously at high level without being in a position to buy any deck they want. (Indeed AIUI at this point top players devote a similar amount of time to a full-time job, and have teams of supporters to practice with).
    - klyrs 5y ago
      You've demonstrated that only the rich can compete; not really refuting the point, is it? But limiting our attention to strictly pro-level play is a bit silly, as it ignores the overwhelming majority of players. When I was in high school, two of my friends had a lot more money than the rest of us. We'd get a few boosters of a new expansion, they'd get a case. Consequently, their decks were nigh unbeatable.
      - galaxyLogic 5y ago
        Isn't this how many online games like World-of-Warcraft work as well? You can buy success. Is that wrong? I think that's stupid from the part of the players who spend their money that way and smart from the part of the designers of the game who are laughing all the way to the bank. But then isn't that how Football works as well. Star players get rich but who really gets rich is the company called NFL.
      - qsort 5y ago
        > You've demonstrated that only the rich can compete; not really refuting the point, is it? You are moving the goalposts now. But anyway: - The entire argument doesn't even apply to 50% of Magic. - Even only considering constructed, it's objectively not the case that more money = more results. Sure, if you want to play competitively you have to dump ~1k/yr in it, but that's not unusual for games/sports. If you are not interested in competitive play, you can get away with a fraction of that. > We'd get a few boosters of a new expansion, they'd get a case Giant red herring. Unless you are playing actual competitive formats, you can make decent, almost competitive decks for literally spare change.
        klyrs 5y ago
        OC> And richer players have access better to cards that poorer payers can never hope to be dealt. >> You've demonstrated that only the rich can compete; not really refuting the point, is it? > You are moving the goalposts now. Am I? Was it you who set the goalpost wherein Magic is only about tournament-level play and not a casual game? Or does it seem to you that the OC's comment might be a statement about the economic situation in the broader cultural context that the game exists in? I like how you say "almost competitive decks." Granted, I haven't played for over a good decade, but through the ~15 years that I did play, powerful rares were typically between several dollars and tens of dollars. The decks of my richer friends were stuffed to the gills with such cards -- it adds up, and a good deck can cost a couple hundred bucks. That might be spare change for you, but it isn't for a lot of magic players. And like, a draft game is fun but at a cost of 4 boosters per player, that's not pocket change. We'd use rules like "all commons" to level the playing field.
  - dharmab 5y ago
    Another genre is "deckbuilding" where all the cards are in a shared pool and you construct a deck during the gameplay by various means.
    - stevenicr 5y ago
      that event type sounds interesting - I think it would be fun.. a more common and similar version where your deck is not pre-built (usually at home) - that is/was played a lot around thee parts is/was 'draft' although it's official nomenclature may be 'sealed' ( https://magic.wizards.com/en/game-info/gameplay/formats/sealed-deck https://magic.wizards.com/en/game-info/gameplay/formats/seal...) so it's a pool of packs you get, and you get to choose a card then pass.. so it's not totally random you get some choices, but you get stuck with some at the end of each pass rotation.. but then you build from there. Definitely my favorite, above 'standard' or 'modern', at least it was, not sure about the new cards out or the "randomness" of the 'digital packs' are these days.
      - qsort 5y ago
        Your parent is referring to a different kind of game, i.e. deckbuilding games, like Dominion. They share some aspects with MTG but they are more like traditional board games. Many of those games are absolutely wonderful but you won't find a MTG-like experience. > although it's official nomenclature may be 'sealed' Sealed and Draft are two different formats. Sealed = You open six boosters, make a deck from those cards. Draft = 8 players around a table, each one opens a booster, picks a card, passes left, until all cards have been picked. Repeat again, this passing right. Repeat a third time, passing left again.
      - dharmab 5y ago
        Check out Thunderstone and Ascension: Chronicle of the Godslayer
  - ShrigmaMale 5y ago
    My friends and i use cockatrice these days even when we meet in person for that reason. No more issue where guy with largest budget wins every time.
- taneq 5y ago
  If you can't afford M:TG you could try building a gaming PC. You get to pick your graphics card, sound card etc. ;)
cool_dude85 5y ago
Funny enough, one counter example is another card game that's largely seen as part of African-American culture, bid whist. In that game, there's a small pile of cards dealt separately as a kitty, which the winning bidder gets to incorporate into his hand after the bid is done.
- mst 5y ago
  Unless I'm misunderstanding what I just googled, Spades is at least somewhat a descendent of Bid Whist. But I didn't dig that deeply so don't count on me being right.
Zircom 5y ago
In spades all 52 cards are dealt out 13 to each player, so there's absolutely no way* to change anything in your hand. There's no deck or discard pile to draw from, unlike other card games were you can draw or otherwise pick cards up others have discarded/played, or some games even allow you to play cards off other cards already on the table. *in some variants you can trade 2 cards with your partner if you are taking a nil
- wyager 5y ago
  Isn’t Texas hold em poker, I would guess the most popular card game, the same way?
  - __s 5y ago
    No, you're dealt 2 cards, not 13. You eventually draw 5 to 3 cards from the community cards
    - wyager 5y ago
      I mean in the sense that you can't change your hand.
  - vikingerik 5y ago
    Not exactly. You might think you have some control over your hand in hold 'em, but it's an illusion. You get two private cards and five community cards. You can pick any five of the seven to use at the showdown. It feels like you get choice with the five-of-seven, but you don't really. There's always one strictly superior set (or trivial equivalencies), and that will be automatically chosen in any serious context ("cards speak".) Draw poker does give you some control, by letting you discard some cards to get them replaced. There are also wackier poker variations that let you buy or pick or trade out more cards, but very little of that is seriously played anywhere.
    - wyager 5y ago
      I think you're agreeing with me. Holdem doesn't let you change your hand.
watwut 5y ago
There are games where you build your deck either before game or during game. Then you have control over what card comes at which probabilities.
majormajor 5y ago
Many forms of poker let you exchange some number of cards, or do a "pick N out of M from this pool" type of thing. Hearts lets you shuffle cards around (the usual style I've seen is first pass right, then pass left, then pass across, then hold).
scubbo 5y ago
Blackjack (and, arguably, Go Fish) - and, as another commenter has pointed out, non-"standard-52" games like Magic The Gathering, Yu-Gi-Oh, Netrunner, Legend Of The Five Rings, etc.
riversflow 5y ago
I’m gonna chime in here and say that in Cribbage you only “play” 4 of the 6 cards you’re dealt, the two discarded cards from each player become the crib which is counted for points, but not played.
baud147258 5y ago
> I'm having trouble thinking of a card game where you do get control over the cards you're dealt. Maybe there is one? For French tarot, when dealing the cards, three are set aside and one player get them, then choose three cards from his hand to set aside (so that all players get the same number of cards) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Tarot#Rules https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Tarot#Rules
ProjectArcturis 5y ago
In Hearts you often get to pass 3 cards to an opponent before play begins.

spullara 5y ago

In games like Magic: The Gathering you do get to decide what possible cards you can be dealt.

dagw 5y ago
And richer players have access better to cards that poorer payers can never hope to be dealt.
- qsort 5y ago
  You do have a point, but this trope is overstated in a way that doesn't reflect reality IMO. At a competitive level the playing field is completely level. You have to assume players have access to all the cards, otherwise games like it make zero sense. Sure, it's an expensive game, but so are many other games and sports. It's an accessibility issue, not a balance issue: it's not like you can buy your way to victory. Plus, you can always play sealed and draft, if you really hate constructed formats!
  - taneq 5y ago
    > It's an accessibility issue, not a balance issue: it's not like you can buy your way to victory. It's only 'not a balance issue' because you consider access to all of the cards to be table stakes.
    - lmm 5y ago
      Right, but... it is table stakes. No-one is playing Magic seriously at high level without being in a position to buy any deck they want. (Indeed AIUI at this point top players devote a similar amount of time to a full-time job, and have teams of supporters to practice with).
  - klyrs 5y ago
    You've demonstrated that only the rich can compete; not really refuting the point, is it? But limiting our attention to strictly pro-level play is a bit silly, as it ignores the overwhelming majority of players. When I was in high school, two of my friends had a lot more money than the rest of us. We'd get a few boosters of a new expansion, they'd get a case. Consequently, their decks were nigh unbeatable.
    - galaxyLogic 5y ago
      Isn't this how many online games like World-of-Warcraft work as well? You can buy success. Is that wrong? I think that's stupid from the part of the players who spend their money that way and smart from the part of the designers of the game who are laughing all the way to the bank. But then isn't that how Football works as well. Star players get rich but who really gets rich is the company called NFL.
    - qsort 5y ago
      > You've demonstrated that only the rich can compete; not really refuting the point, is it? You are moving the goalposts now. But anyway: - The entire argument doesn't even apply to 50% of Magic. - Even only considering constructed, it's objectively not the case that more money = more results. Sure, if you want to play competitively you have to dump ~1k/yr in it, but that's not unusual for games/sports. If you are not interested in competitive play, you can get away with a fraction of that. > We'd get a few boosters of a new expansion, they'd get a case Giant red herring. Unless you are playing actual competitive formats, you can make decent, almost competitive decks for literally spare change.
      - klyrs 5y ago
        OC> And richer players have access better to cards that poorer payers can never hope to be dealt. >> You've demonstrated that only the rich can compete; not really refuting the point, is it? > You are moving the goalposts now. Am I? Was it you who set the goalpost wherein Magic is only about tournament-level play and not a casual game? Or does it seem to you that the OC's comment might be a statement about the economic situation in the broader cultural context that the game exists in? I like how you say "almost competitive decks." Granted, I haven't played for over a good decade, but through the ~15 years that I did play, powerful rares were typically between several dollars and tens of dollars. The decks of my richer friends were stuffed to the gills with such cards -- it adds up, and a good deck can cost a couple hundred bucks. That might be spare change for you, but it isn't for a lot of magic players. And like, a draft game is fun but at a cost of 4 boosters per player, that's not pocket change. We'd use rules like "all commons" to level the playing field.
- dharmab 5y ago
  Another genre is "deckbuilding" where all the cards are in a shared pool and you construct a deck during the gameplay by various means.
  - stevenicr 5y ago
    that event type sounds interesting - I think it would be fun.. a more common and similar version where your deck is not pre-built (usually at home) - that is/was played a lot around thee parts is/was 'draft' although it's official nomenclature may be 'sealed' ( https://magic.wizards.com/en/game-info/gameplay/formats/sealed-deck https://magic.wizards.com/en/game-info/gameplay/formats/seal...) so it's a pool of packs you get, and you get to choose a card then pass.. so it's not totally random you get some choices, but you get stuck with some at the end of each pass rotation.. but then you build from there. Definitely my favorite, above 'standard' or 'modern', at least it was, not sure about the new cards out or the "randomness" of the 'digital packs' are these days.
    - qsort 5y ago
      Your parent is referring to a different kind of game, i.e. deckbuilding games, like Dominion. They share some aspects with MTG but they are more like traditional board games. Many of those games are absolutely wonderful but you won't find a MTG-like experience. > although it's official nomenclature may be 'sealed' Sealed and Draft are two different formats. Sealed = You open six boosters, make a deck from those cards. Draft = 8 players around a table, each one opens a booster, picks a card, passes left, until all cards have been picked. Repeat again, this passing right. Repeat a third time, passing left again.
    - dharmab 5y ago
      Check out Thunderstone and Ascension: Chronicle of the Godslayer
- ShrigmaMale 5y ago
  My friends and i use cockatrice these days even when we meet in person for that reason. No more issue where guy with largest budget wins every time.
taneq 5y ago
If you can't afford M:TG you could try building a gaming PC. You get to pick your graphics card, sound card etc. ;)

cool_dude85 5y ago

Funny enough, one counter example is another card game that's largely seen as part of African-American culture, bid whist. In that game, there's a small pile of cards dealt separately as a kitty, which the winning bidder gets to incorporate into his hand after the bid is done.

mst 5y ago
Unless I'm misunderstanding what I just googled, Spades is at least somewhat a descendent of Bid Whist. But I didn't dig that deeply so don't count on me being right.

Zircom 5y ago

In spades all 52 cards are dealt out 13 to each player, so there's absolutely no way* to change anything in your hand. There's no deck or discard pile to draw from, unlike other card games were you can draw or otherwise pick cards up others have discarded/played, or some games even allow you to play cards off other cards already on the table. *in some variants you can trade 2 cards with your partner if you are taking a nil

wyager 5y ago
Isn’t Texas hold em poker, I would guess the most popular card game, the same way?
- __s 5y ago
  No, you're dealt 2 cards, not 13. You eventually draw 5 to 3 cards from the community cards
  - wyager 5y ago
    I mean in the sense that you can't change your hand.
- vikingerik 5y ago
  Not exactly. You might think you have some control over your hand in hold 'em, but it's an illusion. You get two private cards and five community cards. You can pick any five of the seven to use at the showdown. It feels like you get choice with the five-of-seven, but you don't really. There's always one strictly superior set (or trivial equivalencies), and that will be automatically chosen in any serious context ("cards speak".) Draw poker does give you some control, by letting you discard some cards to get them replaced. There are also wackier poker variations that let you buy or pick or trade out more cards, but very little of that is seriously played anywhere.
  - wyager 5y ago
    I think you're agreeing with me. Holdem doesn't let you change your hand.

watwut 5y ago

There are games where you build your deck either before game or during game. Then you have control over what card comes at which probabilities.

majormajor 5y ago

Many forms of poker let you exchange some number of cards, or do a "pick N out of M from this pool" type of thing. Hearts lets you shuffle cards around (the usual style I've seen is first pass right, then pass left, then pass across, then hold).

scubbo 5y ago

Blackjack (and, arguably, Go Fish) - and, as another commenter has pointed out, non-"standard-52" games like Magic The Gathering, Yu-Gi-Oh, Netrunner, Legend Of The Five Rings, etc.

riversflow 5y ago

I’m gonna chime in here and say that in Cribbage you only “play” 4 of the 6 cards you’re dealt, the two discarded cards from each player become the crib which is counted for points, but not played.

baud147258 5y ago

> I'm having trouble thinking of a card game where you do get control over the cards you're dealt. Maybe there is one? For French tarot, when dealing the cards, three are set aside and one player get them, then choose three cards from his hand to set aside (so that all players get the same number of cards) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Tarot#Rules https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Tarot#Rules

ProjectArcturis 5y ago

In Hearts you often get to pass 3 cards to an opponent before play begins.