4 ms·

Medical doctors have licenses which include exams and all sort of other barriers before they’re a ‘real’ independent doctor.

adamhp 5y ago
I'd be curious to hear peoples thoughts if they would subject themselves to this sort of professional board and licensing for software. There's clearly a pre-determined set of information and skills that are fundamental enough to be tested, but it is also fairly creative and subjective at the end of the day.
- rhacker 5y ago
  With medicine there are probably like 4 ways to treat a bullet wound. If you go too far outside of that you're probably not a good doctor. With software you can write a TODO app with a million lines of code or 7.
  - dleslie 5y ago
    ... Every serious trauma is unique and challenging in its own way.
- hkt 5y ago
  Realistically, I think I'd not be allowed to practice with that kind of system. I suspect there's an entire class of programmer (maybe this is the dev vs eng distinction the article refers to) which would be excluded by a system like this. Fundamentally though I think that system of high priests and laypeople who are barely allowed to code at all can't be sustained. I strongly suspect all professions will eventually require a little programming, and certification will be hard for those cases.
- smolder 5y ago
  I would likely take issue with whatever criteria people chose for judging someone's software engineering ability. Creating the best performing system is rarely anyone's goal (not that performance should be discounted,) they want to make something with the hard to quantify qualities of robustness, scalability, maintainability and expandability, to different degrees. They also often want to use languages or frameworks (or supporting software like databases) based on what boils down to fashion. Often the most desirable quality for candidates is an ability to learn and leverage new tools, given varied and shifting standards of good design, which again is hard to quantify.
- 6gvONxR4sf7o 5y ago
  Given the amount of people with CS degrees who fail the most basic interviews, it would be hard to set something good up. I assume universities are trying to solve the same problems as the hypothetical board setting up this test. That, and the field moving so quickly and being so broad. I interview for ML. I assume interviews for front end are extremely different.
- wheelinsupial 5y ago
  Disclaimer: I’m educated as a technologist not an engineer in Canada. This exists in Canada for some areas of software development that falls under the requirements of being a licensed software engineer. Many people, including CS graduates in Canada, think it’s ridiculous. The requirement for certification is pretty strict in that you need a computer engineering undergrad degree or a degree in software engineering from an accredited program. This is probably how most people would be accredited, but there are some other ways too. All of them, as far as I can gather, require formal educational credentials. You then need to go through a formal apprenticeship while working under someone who is licensed. It’s probably an 8 year process in total. Further to that, there is a limitation on what you can practice. There are different disciplines (e.g., mechanical, civil, electrical) and there are fields and scopes of practice within each of those disciplines. What this results in is someone who is licensed in, for example, embedded systems wouldn’t then be able to go and work on websites or back end databases. The field is further divided into technologists and technicians that require less education than engineers and have much less autonomy and scope of authority.
UncleOxidant 5y ago
Sure, but that doesn't mean they're a good doctor. Most of us have had experiences with bad doctors. The exams they took could have been decades ago, but what does that tell us about how they've performed recently?
- 6gvONxR4sf7o 5y ago
  Bad doctor is relative. I expect that most doctors who have pass through that gauntlet can pass the doctor equivalent of fizzbuzz, which already is a lot different than our industry.
  - dopylitty 5y ago
    A doctor equivalent of fizzbuzz could be “what do you prescribe for a viral infection with no indication of a secondary infection” and from what I’ve heard there are a lot of doctors failing that one during the COVID pandemic by prescribing antibiotics.
    - sjburt 5y ago
      They are highly effective at making patients stop begging for antibiotics they don't need. Patient satisfaction with their doctor has nothing to do with medical outcomes.
    - cratermoon 5y ago
      > prescribing antibiotics. I'd hire that one over anyone pushing horse de-wormer, anti-malarial drugs, or homeopathic remedies.
      - rsynnott 5y ago
        Well, it's less dangerous than the first two, generally, but roughly equivalent to the third, for covid.
- Ginden 5y ago
  It's quite hard to be really bad physician - because Pareto principle applies to medicine. As far as I remember, 5 autoimmune diseases (of >120 described; ~4%) make up for 80% of total autoimmune diseases. My relative did research on kidney diseases and results were similar.

adamhp 5y ago

I'd be curious to hear peoples thoughts if they would subject themselves to this sort of professional board and licensing for software. There's clearly a pre-determined set of information and skills that are fundamental enough to be tested, but it is also fairly creative and subjective at the end of the day.

rhacker 5y ago
With medicine there are probably like 4 ways to treat a bullet wound. If you go too far outside of that you're probably not a good doctor. With software you can write a TODO app with a million lines of code or 7.
- dleslie 5y ago
  ... Every serious trauma is unique and challenging in its own way.
hkt 5y ago
Realistically, I think I'd not be allowed to practice with that kind of system. I suspect there's an entire class of programmer (maybe this is the dev vs eng distinction the article refers to) which would be excluded by a system like this. Fundamentally though I think that system of high priests and laypeople who are barely allowed to code at all can't be sustained. I strongly suspect all professions will eventually require a little programming, and certification will be hard for those cases.
smolder 5y ago
I would likely take issue with whatever criteria people chose for judging someone's software engineering ability. Creating the best performing system is rarely anyone's goal (not that performance should be discounted,) they want to make something with the hard to quantify qualities of robustness, scalability, maintainability and expandability, to different degrees. They also often want to use languages or frameworks (or supporting software like databases) based on what boils down to fashion. Often the most desirable quality for candidates is an ability to learn and leverage new tools, given varied and shifting standards of good design, which again is hard to quantify.
6gvONxR4sf7o 5y ago
Given the amount of people with CS degrees who fail the most basic interviews, it would be hard to set something good up. I assume universities are trying to solve the same problems as the hypothetical board setting up this test. That, and the field moving so quickly and being so broad. I interview for ML. I assume interviews for front end are extremely different.
wheelinsupial 5y ago
Disclaimer: I’m educated as a technologist not an engineer in Canada. This exists in Canada for some areas of software development that falls under the requirements of being a licensed software engineer. Many people, including CS graduates in Canada, think it’s ridiculous. The requirement for certification is pretty strict in that you need a computer engineering undergrad degree or a degree in software engineering from an accredited program. This is probably how most people would be accredited, but there are some other ways too. All of them, as far as I can gather, require formal educational credentials. You then need to go through a formal apprenticeship while working under someone who is licensed. It’s probably an 8 year process in total. Further to that, there is a limitation on what you can practice. There are different disciplines (e.g., mechanical, civil, electrical) and there are fields and scopes of practice within each of those disciplines. What this results in is someone who is licensed in, for example, embedded systems wouldn’t then be able to go and work on websites or back end databases. The field is further divided into technologists and technicians that require less education than engineers and have much less autonomy and scope of authority.

UncleOxidant 5y ago

Sure, but that doesn't mean they're a good doctor. Most of us have had experiences with bad doctors. The exams they took could have been decades ago, but what does that tell us about how they've performed recently?

6gvONxR4sf7o 5y ago
Bad doctor is relative. I expect that most doctors who have pass through that gauntlet can pass the doctor equivalent of fizzbuzz, which already is a lot different than our industry.
- dopylitty 5y ago
  A doctor equivalent of fizzbuzz could be “what do you prescribe for a viral infection with no indication of a secondary infection” and from what I’ve heard there are a lot of doctors failing that one during the COVID pandemic by prescribing antibiotics.
  - sjburt 5y ago
    They are highly effective at making patients stop begging for antibiotics they don't need. Patient satisfaction with their doctor has nothing to do with medical outcomes.
  - cratermoon 5y ago
    > prescribing antibiotics. I'd hire that one over anyone pushing horse de-wormer, anti-malarial drugs, or homeopathic remedies.
    - rsynnott 5y ago
      Well, it's less dangerous than the first two, generally, but roughly equivalent to the third, for covid.
Ginden 5y ago
It's quite hard to be really bad physician - because Pareto principle applies to medicine. As far as I remember, 5 autoimmune diseases (of >120 described; ~4%) make up for 80% of total autoimmune diseases. My relative did research on kidney diseases and results were similar.