5 ms·

> One way I tried to do this, was to switch the kind of milk I drink. This also had a secondary impact on reducing my environmental impact. This is why I'm not

> One way I tried to do this, was to switch the kind of milk I drink. This also had a secondary impact on reducing my environmental impact. This is why I'm not hopeful that lab grown meat will be transformational. We already have a handful of sustainable, widely available, and affordable cow milk alternatives right now and people aren't switching over in droves. Getting people to change their habits is hard without a huge incentive. I can't see how lab grown meat is going to be substantially cheaper (soy/rice/oat milk is more expensive than cow milk in the UK still) or much better tasting to make people switch. I see people saying things like "I'm sure to switch when it's cheaper and tastes the same or better" but I'm not sure how we'll avoid global warming when people aren't willing to really change anything (vs only willing to switch to identical alternatives).

da_big_ghey 5y ago
They are taste very differently and every time I try to make baked foods with substitute milk something is wrong. Lab meat has appeal because is the exact same.
- notahacker 5y ago
  Also, people with ethical concerns about killing cows > people with ethical concerns about drinking their milk
  - caturopath 5y ago
    I don't act much on my moral convictions, but generally I'm anti-torturing farm animals. The lives of beef cows seem way, way better than the lives of dairy cows.
  - rsynnott 5y ago
    Drinking cows’ milk at any scale requires killing cows, though possibly people are less aware of this.
caturopath 5y ago
Lab-grown meat (and presumably lab-produced milk) are going to be a different sort of product than Morning Star patties or Pea Milk. Lab-grown meat would be meat, not merely some thing that is vaguely meat-like. I really like soy milk and almond milk, but they remain twice as expensive as milk and distinct in taste. I'm not sure anyone thinks that lab-grown meat will go through the roof if it's not cheaper than farm-grown meat.
vertex-four 5y ago
In the EU, people are switching over in droves - to the point that the dairy lobby got a law passed that they cannot be called milk, and cannot be advertised in ways evocative of milk.
zwieback 5y ago
Maybe people aren't switching over in droves but when I opened up my 21 yr. old daughter's fridge the other day she had oat, soy and almond milk in there but no dairy. Personally, I like all the alternatives except soy but my goto remains 2% cow milk for my tea in the morning. All other uses I could switch to alternatives without too much pain.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
onlyrealcuzzo 5y ago
Alternative milks make up about ~10% of the US market according to this report [1]. If the trend continues, in 6 years, they're likely to make up ~50%. [1] https://www.totallyveganbuzz.com/news/vegan-milk-sales-grow-dairy-drops-usda/?amp https://www.totallyveganbuzz.com/news/vegan-milk-sales-grow-...
dfxm12 5y ago
I think milk substitutes are fine alternatives for drinking and cereal, but not baking/cooking. I don't know how much that matters. But I do think in general people will buy whatever's cheapest, and it is an uphill battle against the many dairy assistance programs the government provides: https://www.ers.usda.gov/topics/animal-products/dairy/policy.aspx https://www.ers.usda.gov/topics/animal-products/dairy/policy...
tempest_ 5y ago
Sure but very few of those affordable cow milk alternatives are a really good facsimile. I've had so many of them and the pea protein ones are probably the closest in texture and the barista oat milk tastes pretty good but none of them are exact copies. Lab grown meat is by definition a good facsimile. I don't think people care too much if it spent time as part of a cow or in a bag/vat.
rsynnott 5y ago
Lab grown meat (and milk, for that matter; there’s some work on that) should taste much like real meat. Milk substitutes don’t really taste like real milk. It’s also likely that at some point animal agriculture subsidy will end, and cost of externalities may be tacked on. At that point price will influence consumer behaviour. Plant ‘milks’ are currently more expensive than actual milk largely because farmers don’t have to pay for emissions, largely don’t have to pay for water, and are quite heavily subsidised in other ways; this can’t continue indefinitely.
screye 5y ago
Something I've noticed about both vegan/plant-based customers and the industry, is that no one is willing to change their eating habits. Asian and African cuisine are far less reliant on meat (as a percent of their diet) to bring flavor to their food. However, I rarely see vegans driving adoption for Indian/Haitian/west-african food. Instead it is the same old efforts towards mastering the vegan beef patty/sausage and vegan pizza. Guess what, India has had an amazing mc Aloo Tikki & mcVeggie in McDonald's for 20 years and they taste better than any vegan burger that is readily available. Let alone native dishes that are far more aligned with vegan ingredients. As long as our diets are reliant on meat and dairy as the sources of flavor and lynchpins of the cuisines, we won't see a perceptible change in net contributions to environmental degradation and climate change. At the same time, the recycle campaigns of the 2000s have shown that expecting ground up action from the customer almost never works. There needs to be a production side once give to push sustainable solutions. Maybe we could start with. Ew balancing subsidies to push sustainable practises in the food industry. But food luck getting past that lobby.
- seanwilson 5y ago
  > Asian and African cuisine are far less reliant on meat (as a percent of their diet) to bring flavor to their food. However, I rarely see vegans driving adoption for Indian/Haitian/west-african food. Instead it is the same old efforts towards mastering the vegan beef patty/sausage and vegan pizza. Guess what, India has had an amazing mc Aloo Tikki & mcVeggie in McDonald's for 20 years and they taste better than any vegan burger that is readily available. Let alone native dishes that are far more aligned with vegan ingredients. I agree with this. It's odd when you think about it that many people expect cow, chicken, pig or cheese to be part of every meal they eat. The alternative to meat shouldn't be Beyond burgers, it should be plants, vegetables, tofu, tempeh, setain etc. and a change in mindset about food.
- soldehierro 5y ago
  There are plenty of vegans who don't regularly use meat substitutes. Imo, it seems like most of them are more directed to curious meat-eaters rather than vegans.
- stormbrew 5y ago
kiliantics 5y ago
So why aren't we demanding incentives? Let's make policy which causes plant-based diets to be the path of least resistance for most people. We do this for plenty of other things.
wittycardio 5y ago
We need to get rid of all meat and dairy subsidies asap. If the price of milk and meat reflected their social costs then consumption would drop pretty quickly

da_big_ghey 5y ago

They are taste very differently and every time I try to make baked foods with substitute milk something is wrong. Lab meat has appeal because is the exact same.

notahacker 5y ago
Also, people with ethical concerns about killing cows > people with ethical concerns about drinking their milk
- caturopath 5y ago
  I don't act much on my moral convictions, but generally I'm anti-torturing farm animals. The lives of beef cows seem way, way better than the lives of dairy cows.
- rsynnott 5y ago
  Drinking cows’ milk at any scale requires killing cows, though possibly people are less aware of this.

caturopath 5y ago

Lab-grown meat (and presumably lab-produced milk) are going to be a different sort of product than Morning Star patties or Pea Milk. Lab-grown meat would be meat, not merely some thing that is vaguely meat-like. I really like soy milk and almond milk, but they remain twice as expensive as milk and distinct in taste. I'm not sure anyone thinks that lab-grown meat will go through the roof if it's not cheaper than farm-grown meat.

vertex-four 5y ago

In the EU, people are switching over in droves - to the point that the dairy lobby got a law passed that they cannot be called milk, and cannot be advertised in ways evocative of milk.

zwieback 5y ago

Maybe people aren't switching over in droves but when I opened up my 21 yr. old daughter's fridge the other day she had oat, soy and almond milk in there but no dairy. Personally, I like all the alternatives except soy but my goto remains 2% cow milk for my tea in the morning. All other uses I could switch to alternatives without too much pain.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

onlyrealcuzzo 5y ago

Alternative milks make up about ~10% of the US market according to this report [1]. If the trend continues, in 6 years, they're likely to make up ~50%. [1] https://www.totallyveganbuzz.com/news/vegan-milk-sales-grow-dairy-drops-usda/?amp https://www.totallyveganbuzz.com/news/vegan-milk-sales-grow-...

dfxm12 5y ago

I think milk substitutes are fine alternatives for drinking and cereal, but not baking/cooking. I don't know how much that matters. But I do think in general people will buy whatever's cheapest, and it is an uphill battle against the many dairy assistance programs the government provides: https://www.ers.usda.gov/topics/animal-products/dairy/policy.aspx https://www.ers.usda.gov/topics/animal-products/dairy/policy...

tempest_ 5y ago

Sure but very few of those affordable cow milk alternatives are a really good facsimile. I've had so many of them and the pea protein ones are probably the closest in texture and the barista oat milk tastes pretty good but none of them are exact copies. Lab grown meat is by definition a good facsimile. I don't think people care too much if it spent time as part of a cow or in a bag/vat.

rsynnott 5y ago

Lab grown meat (and milk, for that matter; there’s some work on that) should taste much like real meat. Milk substitutes don’t really taste like real milk. It’s also likely that at some point animal agriculture subsidy will end, and cost of externalities may be tacked on. At that point price will influence consumer behaviour. Plant ‘milks’ are currently more expensive than actual milk largely because farmers don’t have to pay for emissions, largely don’t have to pay for water, and are quite heavily subsidised in other ways; this can’t continue indefinitely.

screye 5y ago

Something I've noticed about both vegan/plant-based customers and the industry, is that no one is willing to change their eating habits. Asian and African cuisine are far less reliant on meat (as a percent of their diet) to bring flavor to their food. However, I rarely see vegans driving adoption for Indian/Haitian/west-african food. Instead it is the same old efforts towards mastering the vegan beef patty/sausage and vegan pizza. Guess what, India has had an amazing mc Aloo Tikki & mcVeggie in McDonald's for 20 years and they taste better than any vegan burger that is readily available. Let alone native dishes that are far more aligned with vegan ingredients. As long as our diets are reliant on meat and dairy as the sources of flavor and lynchpins of the cuisines, we won't see a perceptible change in net contributions to environmental degradation and climate change. At the same time, the recycle campaigns of the 2000s have shown that expecting ground up action from the customer almost never works. There needs to be a production side once give to push sustainable solutions. Maybe we could start with. Ew balancing subsidies to push sustainable practises in the food industry. But food luck getting past that lobby.

seanwilson 5y ago
> Asian and African cuisine are far less reliant on meat (as a percent of their diet) to bring flavor to their food. However, I rarely see vegans driving adoption for Indian/Haitian/west-african food. Instead it is the same old efforts towards mastering the vegan beef patty/sausage and vegan pizza. Guess what, India has had an amazing mc Aloo Tikki & mcVeggie in McDonald's for 20 years and they taste better than any vegan burger that is readily available. Let alone native dishes that are far more aligned with vegan ingredients. I agree with this. It's odd when you think about it that many people expect cow, chicken, pig or cheese to be part of every meal they eat. The alternative to meat shouldn't be Beyond burgers, it should be plants, vegetables, tofu, tempeh, setain etc. and a change in mindset about food.
soldehierro 5y ago
There are plenty of vegans who don't regularly use meat substitutes. Imo, it seems like most of them are more directed to curious meat-eaters rather than vegans.
stormbrew 5y ago

kiliantics 5y ago

So why aren't we demanding incentives? Let's make policy which causes plant-based diets to be the path of least resistance for most people. We do this for plenty of other things.

wittycardio 5y ago

We need to get rid of all meat and dairy subsidies asap. If the price of milk and meat reflected their social costs then consumption would drop pretty quickly