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I actually agree with the practice, and generally don’t think you should be employed to learn the basic tools of the trade. First there’s a code fluency wall y

I actually agree with the practice, and generally don’t think you should be employed to learn the basic tools of the trade. First there’s a code fluency wall you have to get over. Then there’s a tech debt/spaghetti lesson that needs to be learned (IMO this can only be learned the hard way) I did this with 6 months working on my own stuff 12 hours/day, then 6 months working for nothing but equity in a never gonna happen startup. Once someone is over those two walls, they can be useful to a company. Absolutely never writing greenfield stuff, but maintenance, matching style, very clear start and end type stuff for at least a year. Before you’ve internalized code as a fluent language and developed basic code hygiene, you should not look for a development job. Even if you get one you will be an imposter.

ghaff 5y ago
>I actually agree with the practice, and generally don’t think you should be employed to learn the basic tools of the trade. In what other technical field are you expected, post-school (which probably hasn't taught you a ton of practical skills), to spend a year on your own making yourself employable?
- nkingsy 5y ago
  In medicine you spend a decade making yourself employable. The on your own part is a luxury and a curse, in that we don’t need patients to practice on. The closest comparison I have is professional musician. you’re supposed to love the language of music. If you don’t, good luck.
  - ghaff 5y ago
    The view of some that software has to be this all-consuming thing from a young age if you want to be any good at it has a great deal in common with the arts. And very little in common with how most people treat other technical professions.
    - dragonwriter 5y ago
      It has a lot in common with other fields (most of which sure, are not “technical professions”, but that's because this is not about broad content) in which there is an oversupply of talent at the low levels, regardless of the conditions at the top of the industry. The reason is because — between the people with the genuine love of the field plus those drawn in by the lure of the high-end pay — there is such an oversupply.
    - adamauckland 5y ago
      Sure, because software is both an art and a science and draws a lot of comparisons with music where you have to understand the technical theory, the creative and also be comfortable physically playing an instrument while having some level of understanding the digital domain (MIDI etc). Software also sits at this technical/creative/implementation intersection where unless you're doing something very specific, you're going to need to push/pull in different directions. A lot of software doesn't do anything exciting, standard office CRUD, dashboards, back office tools can be banged together by a single developer as long as they can connect to a database, render a UI (web/desktop) and take requirements from the business. There's a lot of software jobs which aren't at software companies but regular businesses who just need to track something domain specific and can't afford to tender.
cableshaft 5y ago
So you're suggesting new software engineers spend a full year with no pay before trying to get their first job? That's not feasible for most people.

ghaff 5y ago

>I actually agree with the practice, and generally don’t think you should be employed to learn the basic tools of the trade. In what other technical field are you expected, post-school (which probably hasn't taught you a ton of practical skills), to spend a year on your own making yourself employable?

nkingsy 5y ago
In medicine you spend a decade making yourself employable. The on your own part is a luxury and a curse, in that we don’t need patients to practice on. The closest comparison I have is professional musician. you’re supposed to love the language of music. If you don’t, good luck.
- ghaff 5y ago
  The view of some that software has to be this all-consuming thing from a young age if you want to be any good at it has a great deal in common with the arts. And very little in common with how most people treat other technical professions.
  - dragonwriter 5y ago
    It has a lot in common with other fields (most of which sure, are not “technical professions”, but that's because this is not about broad content) in which there is an oversupply of talent at the low levels, regardless of the conditions at the top of the industry. The reason is because — between the people with the genuine love of the field plus those drawn in by the lure of the high-end pay — there is such an oversupply.
  - adamauckland 5y ago
    Sure, because software is both an art and a science and draws a lot of comparisons with music where you have to understand the technical theory, the creative and also be comfortable physically playing an instrument while having some level of understanding the digital domain (MIDI etc). Software also sits at this technical/creative/implementation intersection where unless you're doing something very specific, you're going to need to push/pull in different directions. A lot of software doesn't do anything exciting, standard office CRUD, dashboards, back office tools can be banged together by a single developer as long as they can connect to a database, render a UI (web/desktop) and take requirements from the business. There's a lot of software jobs which aren't at software companies but regular businesses who just need to track something domain specific and can't afford to tender.

cableshaft 5y ago

So you're suggesting new software engineers spend a full year with no pay before trying to get their first job? That's not feasible for most people.