5 ms·

All the hand wringing over American teachers is entirely misplaced. American teachers are very good. Possibly the best in the world. Once you disaggregate natio

All the hand wringing over American teachers is entirely misplaced. American teachers are very good. Possibly the best in the world. Once you disaggregate national educational outcomes by ethnicity this becomes clear. White Americans outperform all white nations except Finland. Asian Americans of all extractions outperform their home nations. Black Americans outperform all black nations. And so on. Judging teachers without accounting for the students they happen to teach is rather unfair. But because race and ethnicity are totally essential to understanding this it's unmentionable.

throw_away 15y ago
that's actually quite an interesting finding. do you have a citation? not calling you out, I'm genuinely interested, as I could totally see that happening with simpson's paradox and all.
- spamizbad 15y ago
  Take a good look at that guys posting history. You're not likely to find a reputable source.
  - Detrus 15y ago
    Actually I remember some well liked and upvoted blog on HN posting stats that separated out affluent ethnicities from poor ethnicities and making US education look good.
    - Detrus 15y ago
      Yea this http://super-economy.blogspot.com/2010/12/amazing-truth-about-pisa-scores-usa.html http://super-economy.blogspot.com/2010/12/amazing-truth-abou... is the blog, mentioned by yummyfajitas
  - deleted 15y ago
    [deleted]
- wrjrpn 15y ago
  http://www.scribd.com/doc/43896331/A-Right-Denied-%E2%80%93-The-Critical-Need-for-Genuine-School-Reform http://www.scribd.com/doc/43896331/A-Right-Denied-%E2%80%93-... Slide 34 is most relevant. This is a presentation deck used by KIPP, one of the more successful charter schools in NY. Family background matters a lot in how well students perform, but it doesn't help that low-income minorities tend to get the worst teachers. Teacher quality is more closely associated with educational outcomes than any other school-related factor, including curriculum, budget, and class size.
- chc 15y ago
  yummyfajitas has posted a lot about this topic on HN, most recently on the aptly titled Simpson's Paradox: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2824694 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2824694 Just search his posting history with relevant keywords and you'll come up with a lot.
kenjackson 15y ago
Those types are comparisons are fundamentally worthless. You generally can't compare averages across school systems as often systemic things are quite different, such as who is even permitted to take the test. Additionally data I've seen puts the US at the 75%ile once you adjust demographically for whites (http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_-EMpadQx4hM/TRKVzaSdWnI/AAAAAAAAAYs/26q8mk1dT3M/s1600/PISA.jpg http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_-EMpadQx4hM/TRKVzaSdWnI/AAAAAAAAAY...). That means the US isn't bad, but it's certainly not stellar. Considering how often I see on the news people saying the US is the best country in the world I'd think we'd rank above Germany, Canada, and Switzerland. And we're not even playing the same sport as Finland. Judging teachers without accounting for the students they happen to teach is rather unfair. But because race and ethnicity are totally essential to understanding this it's unmentionable. Who doesn't talk about race? Every major conference I've seen on this issue discusses race. After unions, it's probably the single biggest issue discussed among policy makers in ths US.
- yummyfajitas 15y ago
  I don't know who claims the US is the best in the world, but we are certainly close to the top. We score 6 points below Canada (530 vs 524) and 1 point below Germany (at 525). Rankings make sporting events exciting because they exaggerate small differences. They are less useful when looking at statistics for the same reason.
- nitrogen 15y ago
  Who doesn't talk about race? Every major conference I've seen on this issue discusses race. After unions, it's probably the single biggest issue discussed among policy makers in ths US. Maybe the OP was suggesting that the typical discussion of race focuses on the racial achievement gap, while ignoring the performance difference between American immigrants of an individual race and their fellow students in their native countries.
tokenadult 15y ago
American teachers are very good. Possibly the best in the world. The one unreplicated, not peer-reviewed blog post relied on for this assertion by HN participants who are not formally trained in social science research does not inspire confidence in this conclusion. I have lived in other countries, and I have worked with public school teachers in a country outside the United States. The TIMSS studies http://timss.bc.edu/ http://timss.bc.edu/ http://nces.ed.gov/timss/ http://nces.ed.gov/timss/ are the best international dataset on the issue, and no competent professional analyst of the TIMSS data has ever reached that conclusion. A recent analysis of the PISA studies conducted by the OECD http://www.pisa.oecd.org/pages/0,2987,en_32252351_32235731_1_1_1_1_1,00.html http://www.pisa.oecd.org/pages/0,2987,en_32252351_32235731_1... is a different international dataset, and its data suggest that the United States is underperforming in mathematics education of the most able mathematics students in the United States. http://educationnext.org/teaching-math-to-the-talented/ http://educationnext.org/teaching-math-to-the-talented/
- yummyfajitas 15y ago
  tokenadult, on a different day: "The methodology ... [comparing aggregate TIMSS scores] you point to repeatedly is laughable." http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2773391 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2773391 Also, could you define "competent professional analyst"?

throw_away 15y ago

that's actually quite an interesting finding. do you have a citation? not calling you out, I'm genuinely interested, as I could totally see that happening with simpson's paradox and all.

spamizbad 15y ago
Take a good look at that guys posting history. You're not likely to find a reputable source.
- Detrus 15y ago
  Actually I remember some well liked and upvoted blog on HN posting stats that separated out affluent ethnicities from poor ethnicities and making US education look good.
  - Detrus 15y ago
    Yea this http://super-economy.blogspot.com/2010/12/amazing-truth-about-pisa-scores-usa.html http://super-economy.blogspot.com/2010/12/amazing-truth-abou... is the blog, mentioned by yummyfajitas
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
wrjrpn 15y ago
http://www.scribd.com/doc/43896331/A-Right-Denied-%E2%80%93-The-Critical-Need-for-Genuine-School-Reform http://www.scribd.com/doc/43896331/A-Right-Denied-%E2%80%93-... Slide 34 is most relevant. This is a presentation deck used by KIPP, one of the more successful charter schools in NY. Family background matters a lot in how well students perform, but it doesn't help that low-income minorities tend to get the worst teachers. Teacher quality is more closely associated with educational outcomes than any other school-related factor, including curriculum, budget, and class size.
chc 15y ago
yummyfajitas has posted a lot about this topic on HN, most recently on the aptly titled Simpson's Paradox: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2824694 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2824694 Just search his posting history with relevant keywords and you'll come up with a lot.

kenjackson 15y ago

Those types are comparisons are fundamentally worthless. You generally can't compare averages across school systems as often systemic things are quite different, such as who is even permitted to take the test. Additionally data I've seen puts the US at the 75%ile once you adjust demographically for whites (http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_-EMpadQx4hM/TRKVzaSdWnI/AAAAAAAAAYs/26q8mk1dT3M/s1600/PISA.jpg http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_-EMpadQx4hM/TRKVzaSdWnI/AAAAAAAAAY...). That means the US isn't bad, but it's certainly not stellar. Considering how often I see on the news people saying the US is the best country in the world I'd think we'd rank above Germany, Canada, and Switzerland. And we're not even playing the same sport as Finland. Judging teachers without accounting for the students they happen to teach is rather unfair. But because race and ethnicity are totally essential to understanding this it's unmentionable. Who doesn't talk about race? Every major conference I've seen on this issue discusses race. After unions, it's probably the single biggest issue discussed among policy makers in ths US.

yummyfajitas 15y ago
I don't know who claims the US is the best in the world, but we are certainly close to the top. We score 6 points below Canada (530 vs 524) and 1 point below Germany (at 525). Rankings make sporting events exciting because they exaggerate small differences. They are less useful when looking at statistics for the same reason.
nitrogen 15y ago
Who doesn't talk about race? Every major conference I've seen on this issue discusses race. After unions, it's probably the single biggest issue discussed among policy makers in ths US. Maybe the OP was suggesting that the typical discussion of race focuses on the racial achievement gap, while ignoring the performance difference between American immigrants of an individual race and their fellow students in their native countries.

tokenadult 15y ago

American teachers are very good. Possibly the best in the world. The one unreplicated, not peer-reviewed blog post relied on for this assertion by HN participants who are not formally trained in social science research does not inspire confidence in this conclusion. I have lived in other countries, and I have worked with public school teachers in a country outside the United States. The TIMSS studies http://timss.bc.edu/ http://timss.bc.edu/ http://nces.ed.gov/timss/ http://nces.ed.gov/timss/ are the best international dataset on the issue, and no competent professional analyst of the TIMSS data has ever reached that conclusion. A recent analysis of the PISA studies conducted by the OECD http://www.pisa.oecd.org/pages/0,2987,en_32252351_32235731_1_1_1_1_1,00.html http://www.pisa.oecd.org/pages/0,2987,en_32252351_32235731_1... is a different international dataset, and its data suggest that the United States is underperforming in mathematics education of the most able mathematics students in the United States. http://educationnext.org/teaching-math-to-the-talented/ http://educationnext.org/teaching-math-to-the-talented/

yummyfajitas 15y ago
tokenadult, on a different day: "The methodology ... [comparing aggregate TIMSS scores] you point to repeatedly is laughable." http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2773391 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2773391 Also, could you define "competent professional analyst"?